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The Emperor's New Clothes?
October 7, 2009 at 8:59 am
I was reading one of fr0d0's posts yesterday when I realised something that I briefly mentioned, but I think it got lost in the fracas with Zoso.
What I realised is that his position (there is evidence for his god, but it can't be "seen" using the scientific method) is reminiscent of the story of The Emporor's New Clothes. i'll go through the story and bracket how I think it applies:
Emperor: I'd like some new clothes please
(Show me some evidence)
Clothesmaker: There you are *gives clothes*
(There you are *offers evidence*)
E: What? These aren't clothes, there's nothing there, I can't see anything!
(This isn't evidence. It doesn't stand up to the rigours of the scientific method)
C: Well of course you can't see them, they're special clothes. No-one can bsee them
(Of course it doesn't. This is special evidence. The scientific method doesn't apply to it)
E: *Puts 'invisible' clothes on*
.....
Thoughts?
Galileo was a man of science oppressed by the irrational and superstitious. Today, he is used by the irrational and superstitious who claim they are being oppressed by science - Mark Crislip
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RE: The Emperor's New Clothes?
October 7, 2009 at 9:14 am
If you are convinced that this is something you should be able to have concrete evidence for then you're going to be hugely disappointed.
You say that this is 'special evidence' as if it is scientific but not as we know it. That God is somehow defined temporally when he clearly isn't.
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RE: The Emperor's New Clothes?
October 7, 2009 at 11:09 am
(October 7, 2009 at 9:14 am)fr0d0 Wrote: You say that this is 'special evidence' as if it is scientific but not as we know it.
No, I mean special in than the scientific method doesn't apply at all. Not that it
could apply if the right method were found. But I don't think that something that doesn't stand up to testing by scientific methods counts as evidence.
That is, I would say that non-scientific evidence is simply non-evidence.
(October 7, 2009 at 9:14 am)fr0d0 Wrote: That God is somehow defined temporally when he clearly isn't.
How do you know that something can exist non-temporally? You assert that your god exists "outside of time" without knowing if this even has any meaning.
Galileo was a man of science oppressed by the irrational and superstitious. Today, he is used by the irrational and superstitious who claim they are being oppressed by science - Mark Crislip
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RE: The Emperor's New Clothes?
October 7, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Not always... there are many forms of 'evidence' which do not hold up to the scientific method.. personal testimony for instance. However, the Christian gods present themselves as scientific evidence... when they are not. They are essentially a lie. They go even further from here... presenting themselves as logical... when they are not.
Nothing within this universe can exist outside of time, and still be able to act. This being is supposedly omnipresent and omniscient and all sorts of other ridiculous things... a non-temporal being (by definition) cannot perform 'worldly' actions. The bible speaks time and time again about all of the things that 'God' has done... calling him non-temporal denies these achievements... or at the very least: banishes every one of them to fiction.
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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RE: The Emperor's New Clothes?
October 7, 2009 at 3:40 pm
So how does the Christian God present himself as scientific evidence? It is logical despite you just saying it isn't without disproving it. Plus your knowledge seems very confident like you 'know' something humans can't. God is said to act on this reality, and as creator surely has to have the ability. I find your statements very illogical Sae.
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RE: The Emperor's New Clothes?
October 7, 2009 at 4:01 pm
(This post was last modified: October 7, 2009 at 4:04 pm by Rhizomorph13.)
Fr0d0,
If geological evidence supported the idea that the whole world flooded, that would be a start. Unless the water from that flood was somehow trancendant AND was able to kill all the people and animals on the planet. The story of the flood makes me think about how God dealt with the sinful dolphins, whales, and fish...
Rhizo
