The Jesus Itinerary

[John V]

The Christian message isn't really a complicated one. Its just the NT and those damn letters from Paul that screw it up, and then the misinterpretations which go on forever because its not clear.

Actually Paul puts the essentials into one verse.

Romans 10
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

[Minimalist]

All right, who farted?!?

Oh, that was just a Minnie post...never mind...

Exactly how I feel about your stupid fucking bible, asswipe!

[DeistPaladin]

Romans 10
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Revelation 20:12 ...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[John V]

Romans 10
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Revelation 20:12 ...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

See, it all comes together if you know where to look.

[Drich]

Actually you hold the Word of God to your own personal standard. Which in of itself is based on faulty reasoning. You assume God would record His word in such a way that you would not have to think about it to get its complete meaning, which means you assume that you and God think alike, or at least on the same wave length. Never mind the generation of people recording his word in this way would alienate.

I assume the same God that gave me the very ability to communicate would understand some of the basic elements of good communication, one of which is clarity. And since this Word of God is written for the entire world, such a universal objective should be reflected in the communication. Both qualities are not consistent with the requirement to get a doctorate in ancient Hebrew culture to understand this communication. You apparently have a lower standard of what the Word of God should be like.

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly Christians transition from "Word of God" to "ah, whaddaya want?" as soon as you begin discussing flaws in this supposed divine communication.

Clarity is available to all who simple avail themselves to it in this time we live in. This however would not have been an option for the hundreds of generations of those who came before.

What do I mean? We now have the 20/20 perspective of being able to look in the past and understand the culture in which the bible was originally written. This would not have been possible for someone who live in the time of Moses to look forward and try and figure out what God meant. Look at the book of revelation as an example. That book was written to the generation who would endure the last 7 years of man's reign on earth. Evidently because we are not there little of it makes sense. Imagine if the whole bible was written to the last generation. Nothing would make sense to anyone till it was too late. So why or what good would the bible be if it alienated everyone except the last generation? Again look at what is being said about John of Patmos for writting revelation in the other thread. He has alienated himself to you all.. As the bible is written it spoke to those who were alive at the time it was compiled, and it speaks to those who wish to listen today. What else could have possibly been written that could do a better job?

[Vincenzo Vinny G.]

All right, who farted?!?

Oh, that was just a Minnie post...never mind...

Exactly how I feel about your stupid fucking bible, asswipe!

When it comes to irrational nonsense, five of your posts would trump any holy book this side of 6000 BC.

Take John V's post as a compliment and move on.

[Godscreated]

@ Deist Paladin, you should know better, in the past you have put up some honest attempts to discredit scriptures, this how ever is not one of those times. You have read into the story it was Joseph's house, your supposition has no support from the story. The two stories are told by two men who may not have even been alive at the time of the event, it's possible they were younger than Jesus. This also has no support, but I do believe we can agree that they were not privy to the events as they happened (the first years of Christ).

You also assume that these men needed to write a chronological time line of the entire story of Jesus, why, why would it be so important for the time line be perfect, that has nothing to do with the message given to mankind. The story is as far as we know, put together with an order that is not chronological but fairly close, and this should be acceptable to what the Gospels are telling.

GC

[Lion IRC]

OK, here's my findings from re-reading the synoptic Gospels again and this time putting all the events on a spreadsheet, placing the major episodes in order of one another.

Birth of Jesus
Matt and Luke are the only Gospels that tell us anything of Jesus' birth or childhood.

Mark tells us about Jesus' mother and siblings. This is information about His earlier family background.
So Matthew and Luke are NOT the only Gospels to tell us anything of Jesus' birth and childhood.

[max-greece]

The Christian message isn't really a complicated one. Its just the NT and those damn letters from Paul that screw it up, and then the misinterpretations which go on forever because its not clear.

Actually Paul puts the essentials into one verse.

Romans 10
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Well thank you for making my point for me - I couldn't have done it better myself.

The message is simple - but you don't get it from Paul.

As you can see from Deist's reply Paul's summary isn't very good - he immediately came up with 3 contradicting paragraphs which you then followed up with some of your own - meaning, as I am sure Deist has a come back- you just lost the plot.

Now there is a perfect summary - offered by Jesus (remember that guy- he's the one that this is all supposed to be about). He was asked, specifically for the most important commandment.

I'm sure you don't need me to write how he responded - even though there are some variations between the gospels.

I'm assuming it is a message that ALL variants of Christianity accept - without further interpretation.

That is the key message. If you'd all stick to that one then the world would be a far better place.

As it is with the Bible being so badly written, so open to interpretation and so self-contradicting you are where you are and Christian will continue to murder Christian over the meaning of a single word.

---

"why would it be so important for the time line be perfect, that has nothing to do with the message given to mankind."

Why would Mary's virginity be important, that has nothing to do with the message given to mankind.
Why would who is father and mother were be important, that has nothing to do with the message given to mankind.
Why would any geographical information or place names be important, that has nothing to do with the message given to mankind.
Why would the names of the disciples be important, that has nothing to do with the message given to mankind.
Why would Jesus' age be important, that has nothing to do with the message given to mankind.

How long a list do you want? You can argue any element of the story is irrelevant but I think it should be of concern when specific statements are shown to be in error. It immediately raises the question - what else is wrong other than the chronology? What "facts" are being invented?....

Bit of a slippery slope if you ask me.

[DeistPaladin]

Look at the book of revelation as an example. That book was written to the generation who would endure the last 7 years of man's reign on earth. Evidently because we are not there little of it makes sense.

I have an alternate theory why little of it makes sense.

It was supposedly penned by John of Patmos. Patmos is an island that was know for hallucinogenic mushrooms...