Believing Vs Claiming to Believe

[The Reality Salesman01]

You would deny the truth no matter what, you've already done that in the past

The example is your ditching Christianity. You may not see Christianity as truth, however I do and you are asking for my thoughts, right.

Then we are talking about opinion, not truth. If you cannot show that it is true, then why are you making objective claims pertaining to it? Showing that it’s true is what makes it true, If you show it to be so, I will not reject it. The burden of proof lies with you, my friend.

Scripture says you're a fool for denying this truth.

Scripture says lots of things, how can we know they are true? The Koran says Jesus was a false prophet, and that Mohammad is the true path to salvation, I don’t doubt for a second that this is at all convincing to you that you’ve committed your life to a lie, but none the less, there are billions that believe this very thing of you. I think they are mistaken, and it has nothing to do with The Koran. I think you too are mistaken, and it has nothing to do with The Bible. Perhaps you have another method to present your case that’s a bit less circular? I mean no offense. But, what you’ve done is the epitome of begging the question, and is indeed circular.

Paul writes that the weak will fall away, Jesus said the same thing in parables. You were in church didn't you study the scriptures and see those things, I did.

You have stated that you question God and this questioning has lead you to an affirmation of things you already believed were true.

No, I questioned God about things I did not understand, I trusted Him to reveal the truth, so I patiently waited. Why would anyone question about something they already know as true?

Socrates said: “A man does not seek that which he thinks he does not need.”
What do you think this means?
If you think you already have truth, and this truth is God, it is true that you would not seek truth elsewhere. My question does not pertain to that which you think is true, but what you know to be true.
I am seeking something different than you. I am seeking knowledge of God which you claim to already have. It can be assumed that you once did not have knowledge of God to produce the belief you now hold. You will not seek what you think you don’t need, once you think you need it, you begin to seek it. What I seek is knowledge of God. One cannot believe in something they do not first know.
God is not like music, or colors, or taste. If God exists, He exists objectively and apart from opinion. Tell me how you know that God exists and how this can be confirmed through questioning by someone that knows nothing about God’s existence. I must first know something of God before I can form a belief around Him.

I do not easily abandon something I truly believe .

Nobody does. But, would you agree some people believe in things that are not true?

If you find your words have no impact, consider taking a new approach. If it is truth, like 2+2 is 4, than this truth can be conveyed with the right words.

You do understand that if you reject what I have said it's not me you have rejected, right?

Of course! I have not rejected you as a person. I have rejected your testimony thus far as it is irresolvable and indistinguishable from something you think is true, and not necessarily something you can know to be true. I am still open. I haven’t rejected anything from God, as you’ve humbly admitted that you can’t personally speak for God, otherwise you would have the answers I seek. This is a bit disappointing, but I appreciate your honesty.

"Faith" is the first step to knowledge of God,

Thank you again, as this is another attempt to defend a clear position. You have stated that you use “faith” as an epistemology. Now, we have something we can talk about.

I said that faith is the beginning of verified knowledge

I’m sorry, but I don’t know that this is necessarily true. Verified by whom? Can you give another example of this? Is this a special condition that applies only to God, or can it produce other verified knowledge?

Belief without sight, either physically, mentally or otherwise, it is a beginning to belief and belief leads to knowledge. Faith is the first step in a process to knowledge of God.

This doesn’t strike you as an unreasonable thing for you to ask someone that has no idea what you’re talking about? I think you’re being insensitive to the fact that I literally don’t know anything about what a God is, at all. Just telling me to believe you isn’t going to help. I think you’re being a bit obtuse here. Surely there’s some method by which you can demonstrate the knowledge you claim to have.
I asked Rondee this same question, but she didn’t answer. I think both of you may have viewed it as a slight, but I think it’s fair.

How do you know that you are not delusional?

If this question was raised pertaining to another belief you hold, I don’t think you would be leery about answering it. From the perspective of somebody that cannot verify anything that you’re saying, you explaining how you know you’re not delusional can perhaps give me some better insight that would create such a false impression.

[Godscreated]

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You would deny the truth no matter what, you've already done that in the past

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The example is your ditching Christianity. You may not see Christianity as truth, however I do and you are asking for my thoughts, right.

Then we are talking about opinion, not truth. If you cannot show that it is true, then why are you making objective claims pertaining to it? Showing that it’s true is what makes it true, If you show it to be so, I will not reject it. The burden of proof lies with you, my friend.

I think we should get something straight before going any further, it's not my responsibility to prove God to you, Jesus instructed for us to share what we have learned. Actually God says that once we have shared it is you who have to decide, that means you have to prove God is not true. In the end this is what it comes down to.

Scripture says you're a fool for denying this truth.

Scripture says lots of things, how can we know they are true? The Koran says Jesus was a false prophet, and that Mohammad is the true path to salvation, I don’t doubt for a second that this is at all convincing to you that you’ve committed your life to a lie, but none the less, there are billions that believe this very thing of you. I think they are mistaken, and it has nothing to do with The Koran. I think you too are mistaken, and it has nothing to do with The Bible. Perhaps you have another method to present your case that’s a bit less circular? I mean no offense. But, what you’ve done is the epitome of begging the question, and is indeed circular.

I walk down a straight path, it is those who deny truth that walk in circles. Just how is it that you believe what the Koran says, is this how you came to your decision that Christ is not real?

Paul writes that the weak will fall away, Jesus said the same thing in parables. You were in church didn't you study the scriptures and see those things, I did.

You have stated that you question God and this questioning has lead you to an affirmation of things you already believed were true.

No, I questioned God about things I did not understand, I trusted Him to reveal the truth, so I patiently waited. Why would anyone question about something they already know as true?

Socrates said: “A man does not seek that which he thinks he does not need.”
What do you think this means?

I think it means you trust what a man says over what God says. I believe you bought into the great lie that God does not exist.

If you think you already have truth, and this truth is God, it is true that you would not seek truth elsewhere. My question does not pertain to that which you think is true, but what you know to be true.

I seek truth from the source of truth, why would I seek truth about God from those who do not know Him, how is it they can give me the truth about something they know nothing about. If you're sick with an illness, do you go to a plumber to get a diagnosis.

I am seeking something different than you. I am seeking knowledge of God which you claim to already have. It can be assumed that you once did not have knowledge of God to produce the belief you now hold. You will not seek what you think you don’t need, once you think you need it, you begin to seek it. What I seek is knowledge of God. One cannot believe in something they do not first know.

Faith my friend, I told you that's were it has to begin, if you are not willing to have faith to find the truth, then I guess you are not going to find that which will set you free.

God is not like music, or colors, or taste. If God exists, He exists objectively and apart from opinion. Tell me how you know that God exists and how this can be confirmed through questioning by someone that knows nothing about God’s existence. I must first know something of God before I can form a belief around Him.

I've told you things about God and you have ignored them my labeling them as opinion, that's the right you have with God. What if you could not taste, see in color or hear, would you not believe people who explained to you that music, color or taste exists. You would never be able to experience them to find out if people were telling you the truth, yet one can experience God if one desire to. So is ignorance bliss. I'll say it again faith first.

I do not easily abandon something I truly believe .

Nobody does. But, would you agree some people believe in things that are not true?

Yes I am conversing with one.

If you find your words have no impact, consider taking a new approach. If it is truth, like 2+2 is 4, than this truth can be conveyed with the right words.

You do understand that if you reject what I have said it's not me you have rejected, right?

Of course! I have not rejected you as a person. I have rejected your testimony thus far as it is irresolvable and indistinguishable from something you think is true, and not necessarily something you can know to be true.

It's true, I know it's true, it comes by spiritual means, not emotional or scientific means. If you can not accept that then why are we even discussing this.

I am still open. I haven’t rejected anything from God, as you’ve humbly admitted that you can’t personally speak for God, otherwise you would have the answers I seek. This is a bit disappointing, but I appreciate your honesty.

You'll have to excuse me but, I can not take you as serious about being open to this, you've given me no evidence that you are, just some I said I am. I can speak about God and who He is and some of His will, but if you're looking for personal experience you will have to go directly to God.

"Faith" is the first step to knowledge of God,

Thank you again, as this is another attempt to defend a clear position. You have stated that you use “faith” as an epistemology. Now, we have something we can talk about.

I said that faith is the beginning of verified knowledge

I’m sorry, but I don’t know that this is necessarily true. Verified by whom? Can you give another example of this? Is this a special condition that applies only to God, or can it produce other verified knowledge?

Verified by you! Does it matter if it is verifiable by anyone else, as long as you know it's true. Others on this site portray me as something I'm not, I know that I'm not like they say and as long as God and I know this it matters not, verifiable by God and myself, all that matters.

Belief without sight, either physically, mentally or otherwise, it is a beginning to belief and belief leads to knowledge. Faith is the first step in a process to knowledge of God.

This doesn’t strike you as an unreasonable thing for you to ask someone that has no idea what you’re talking about? I think you’re being insensitive to the fact that I literally don’t know anything about what a God is, at all.

I doubt that, I doubt there's anyone who hasn't heard of one god or the other and I know you have.

Just telling me to believe you isn’t going to help. I think you’re being a bit obtuse here. Surely there’s some method by which you can demonstrate the knowledge you claim to have.
I asked Rondee this same question, but she didn’t answer. I think both of you may have viewed it as a slight, but I think it’s fair.

I did not tell you to start with belief and neither does God, I said it all starts with faith, now you're starting to manipulate what I've stated, you're headed towards deconversion, sorry but God has verified Himself to me you have no chance against Him!
Faith in it's purest meaning and practice is trust, not belief or knowledge. Trusting that God is real has never hurt anyone, it has changed many lives for the good, to bad that's not what you are truly looking for nor do I believe it's your true intention. But, yes asking someone to trust is not some unreasonable, horrible thing, especially if it could make your life better, but hey that decision belongs solely to you.

How do you know that you are not delusional?

I'm as sane as most and more than some on this site, just look at the meds their on.

If this question was raised pertaining to another belief you hold, I don’t think you would be leery about answering it. From the perspective of somebody that cannot verify anything that you’re saying, you explaining how you know you’re not delusional can perhaps give me some better insight that would create such a false impression.

Exactly what belief, if you're going to compare physical to spiritual, you might as well get you an orange and call it a puppy. In God's eyes I am not the one deluded and for me that's what matters, sorry you do not see it that way, but hey that's another choice you have. Unlike not believing me, not believing God comes with consequences.

GC

[Bad Wolf]

I think we should get something straight before going any further, it's not my responsibility to prove God to you, Jesus instructed for us to share what we have learned. Actually God says that once we have shared it is you who have to decide, that means you have to prove God is not true. In the end this is what it comes down to.

Why do theists have so much trouble with this simply concept. It has been explained to you many times GC: The burden of proof.
You are making the claim that a god exists. We are simply stating we don't believe you. We are not claiming he does not exist, we have no claim.

If you follow your own logic here, you must believe in bigfoot and the lochness monster too. In fact, anything that hasn't been disproved. You find yourself in the ridiculous situation of believing every claim unless it is proven wrong. Unless of course you are a gigantic hypocrite and only apply this kind of thinking to your god.
So which is it? You believe every claim unless proven wrong, or you are a hypocrite.

Here's a good example for you:
Me: I have a real unicorn living in my shed

You: No you don't

Me: You can't prove that I don't

You: OK, I believe you, you must really have a real unicorn in your shed!

If you can't see how ridiculous that is, I worry for the future of the human race

[The Reality Salesman01]

Verified by you! Does it matter if it is verifiable by anyone else, as long as you know it's true. Others on this site portray me as something I'm not, I know that I'm not like they say and as long as God and I know this it matters not, verifiable by God and myself, all that matters.

I think that I’ve figured it out. You don’t know the difference between objective and subjective beliefs. You think that God exists in the way that you may have a preferred flavor of ice cream. True, chocolate may be the best flavor to you, and it doesn’t matter if anyone agrees because its true only within your own personal experience of what ice cream tastes like.
God is an objective claim. He either exists, or he doesn’t.
If he exists outside of your mind, it should be verifiable by me, or anyone else that doesn’t know what you claim to know. But you’ve made it abundantly clear that God exists in your mind, “soul”…etc. If it’s true that you think he exists, then it is apparent that he exists only in your mind as a product of your own personal experience. God being real to you is no different than what you think is real pertaining to other subjective terms of truth such as taste, music, art…etc.
Being convinced that it’s objectively true while describing it as perfectly subjective brings us back to my question. I hope you try and answer it honestly this time…

I'm as sane as most and more than some on this site…

How do you know that you aren’t delusional?
Do delusional people think they are sane? Are they not aware that they are delusional?
I asked how you could know whether or not you were delusional. You’re response was that you are sane. That’s the same as saying , “I know I’m not delusional, because I’m not delusional.”
How do you know you are not delusional? Try to answer this question honestly. This shouldn’t be that hard of a question for you to answer.

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I think we should get something straight before going any further, it's not my responsibility to prove God to you, Jesus instructed for us to share what we have learned. Actually God says that once we have shared it is you who have to decide, that means you have to prove God is not true. In the end this is what it comes down to.

Why do theists have so much trouble with this simply concept. It has been explained to you many times GC: The burden of proof.
You are making the claim that a god exists. We are simply stating we don't believe you. We are not claiming he does not exist, we have no claim.

If you follow your own logic here, you must believe in bigfoot and the lochness monster too. In fact, anything that hasn't been disproved. You find yourself in the ridiculous situation of believing every claim unless it is proven wrong. Unless of course you are a gigantic hypocrite and only apply this kind of thinking to your god.
So which is it? You believe every claim unless proven wrong, or you are a hypocrite.

Here's a good example for you:
Me: I have a real unicorn living in my shed

You: No you don't

Me: You can't prove that I don't

You: OK, I believe you, you must really have a real unicorn in your shed!

If you can't see how ridiculous that is, I worry for the future of the human race

He doesn't understand. Any ability he could use to face this topic critically has been aimed and fixed in a different direction. It's unlikely that he even has the capacity to potentially comprehend these concepts.

Its almost as if his critical thinking skills, while dull, only attacks things with a heat signature, and in his mind, God is wearing a suit that makes him invisible on the infrared. Something will have to happen in order to rattle his cage and get the intellectual juices flowing.

[Godscreated]

I think we should get something straight before going any further, it's not my responsibility to prove God to you, Jesus instructed for us to share what we have learned. Actually God says that once we have shared it is you who have to decide, that means you have to prove God is not true. In the end this is what it comes down to.

Why do theists have so much trouble with this simply concept. It has been explained to you many times GC: The burden of proof.

I do not care about burden of proof, I state what I know, if you reject it that's on you not me and in the end death will prove me correct.

You are making the claim that a god exists. We are simply stating we don't believe you. We are not claiming he does not exist, we have no claim.

This is where atheist fail, God claims He exist, I and all Christians agree with this. You say you are not claiming He does not exist yet you try and prove it all the time, so what do you call that, I personally see it as a claim. So either practice what you preach or admit you are making a claim.

If you follow your own logic here, you must believe in bigfoot and the lochness monster too. In fact, anything that hasn't been disproved. You find yourself in the ridiculous situation of believing every claim unless it is proven wrong. Unless of course you are a gigantic hypocrite and only apply this kind of thinking to your god.
So which is it? You believe every claim unless proven wrong, or you are a hypocrite.

Neither, I do not live by your rules, you are trying to be a god by forcing me to make ridiculous choices, thank God he doesn't do the same. I have a personal relationship with God and He has proven Himself to me many times, just because you have not does not negate my real experiences. The real hypocrite here is you, you say you make no claim, yet you try and disprove God, you my friend are the epitome of a hypocrite.

Here's a good example for you:
Me: I have a real unicorn living in my shed

You: No you don't

Me: You can't prove that I don't

You: OK, I believe you, you must really have a real unicorn in your shed!

If you can't see how ridiculous that is, I worry for the future of the human race

Yes I see how ridiculous your example is and with that kind of thinking from you and yours we all should worry about the future. All I have to do is look in your shed.

GC

[LostLocke]

I do not care about burden of proof...

That pretty much sums it up, and ends any possibility of having meaningful discussions.

[Bad Wolf]

This is where atheist fail, God claims He exist, I and all Christians agree with this.

The lengths theists go to avoid the burden of proof, it just baffles me sometimes...

You say you are not claiming He does not exist yet you try and prove it all the time, so what do you call that, I personally see it as a claim. So either practice what you preach or admit you are making a claim.

Trying to prove something doesn't exist and claiming it doesn't exist are two different things. Making the claim would come after the proof. And since there isn't any proof that god doesn't exist, we make no claim that he doesn't

If you follow your own logic here, you must believe in bigfoot and the lochness monster too. In fact, anything that hasn't been disproved. You find yourself in the ridiculous situation of believing every claim unless it is proven wrong. Unless of course you are a gigantic hypocrite and only apply this kind of thinking to your god.
So which is it? You believe every claim unless proven wrong, or you are a hypocrite.

Neither, I do not live by your rules, you are trying to be a god by forcing me to make ridiculous choices, thank God he doesn't do the same.

So much fail here, MUST....RESIST....FACEPALM APOCALYPSE

But answer me this: Do you believe in bigfoot?

Here's a good example for you:
Me: I have a real unicorn living in my shed

You: No you don't

Me: You can't prove that I don't

You: OK, I believe you, you must really have a real unicorn in your shed!

If you can't see how ridiculous that is, I worry for the future of the human race

Yes I see how ridiculous your example is and with that kind of thinking from you and yours we all should worry about the future. All I have to do is look in your shed.

GC

Ah but you wouldn't see anything, my unicorn is invisible you see. Now what?

[Godscreated]

Verified by you! Does it matter if it is verifiable by anyone else, as long as you know it's true. Others on this site portray me as something I'm not, I know that I'm not like they say and as long as God and I know this it matters not, verifiable by God and myself, all that matters.

I think that I’ve figured it out. You don’t know the difference between objective and subjective beliefs. You think that God exists in the way that you may have a preferred flavor of ice cream. True, chocolate may be the best flavor to you, and it doesn’t matter if anyone agrees because its true only within your own personal experience of what ice cream tastes like.
God is an objective claim. He either exists, or he doesn’t.
If he exists outside of your mind, it should be verifiable by me, or anyone else that doesn’t know what you claim to know. But you’ve made it abundantly clear that God exists in your mind, “soul”…etc. If it’s true that you think he exists, then it is apparent that he exists only in your mind as a product of your own personal experience. God being real to you is no different than what you think is real pertaining to other subjective terms of truth such as taste, music, art…etc.
Being convinced that it’s objectively true while describing it as perfectly subjective brings us back to my question. I hope you try and answer it honestly this time…

I answered it honestly, again it is you that must verify God is real. I do not make the claim God is real, He does and I agree with what He claims. Why do I believe His claim, because He has proven Himself to me, why, because I desired to know and trusted. My faith, belief and knowledge or what ever you want to imagine it to be is absolutely objective, just because I take Him at His word and find Him in a personal relationship doesn't mean it's subjective. I'm beginning to see your problem, you never had a personal relationship with God and because you failed to do so no one else is allowed to, right. You do know what that's called right, jea....., right.

I'm as sane as most and more than some on this site…

How do you know that you aren’t delusional?
Do delusional people think they are sane? Are they not aware that they are delusional?
I asked how you could know whether or not you were delusional. You’re response was that you are sane. That’s the same as saying , “I know I’m not delusional, because I’m not delusional.”
How do you know you are not delusional? Try to answer this question honestly. This shouldn’t be that hard of a question for you to answer.

Now you are calling me a liar, you are taking this conversation down to unacceptable levels, if my word is not good enough then why have you asked me to explain things to you I know about God. I believe, no I know your only intention is to run down what I know, your jealousy is beginning to tear down your honesty, if you had any to begin with. You are losing your trust with me in a hurry and if that's what you want by continuing to go down this road fine but, do not expect me to play your little game to satisfy your jealousy.

GC

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Why do theists have so much trouble with this simply concept. It has been explained to you many times GC: The burden of proof.
You are making the claim that a god exists. We are simply stating we don't believe you. We are not claiming he does not exist, we have no claim.

If you follow your own logic here, you must believe in bigfoot and the lochness monster too. In fact, anything that hasn't been disproved. You find yourself in the ridiculous situation of believing every claim unless it is proven wrong. Unless of course you are a gigantic hypocrite and only apply this kind of thinking to your god.
So which is it? You believe every claim unless proven wrong, or you are a hypocrite.

Here's a good example for you:
Me: I have a real unicorn living in my shed

You: No you don't

Me: You can't prove that I don't

You: OK, I believe you, you must really have a real unicorn in your shed!

If you can't see how ridiculous that is, I worry for the future of the human race

He doesn't understand. Any ability he could use to face this topic critically has been aimed and fixed in a different direction. It's unlikely that he even has the capacity to potentially comprehend these concepts.

Its almost as if his critical thinking skills, while dull, only attacks things with a heat signature, and in his mind, God is wearing a suit that makes him invisible on the infrared. Something will have to happen in order to rattle his cage and get the intellectual juices flowing.

My intelligence is just fine and my relationship with God is getting better daily, thanks to people like you and yours. Sorry you think I have to live by your silly concepts and it's pitiful that you do, God's given me the free will to choose and you have admitted so in the above statement you made, thanks for that conformation.

GC

[The Reality Salesman01]

That's exactly the response I've come to expect. Lackluster and underwhelming.

[Bad Wolf]

OK GC lets make this really simple:
I say bigfoot does exist
You say you don't believe me
Now answer a few questions:
Who is making the claim?
Who needs to provide evidence?