Believing Vs Claiming to Believe

[ronedee]

Anytime. I understand why you didn't want to answer my question pertaining to delusion. The definition came from Webster btw. I copy and pasted. I took no liberties with that. I'm not sure why you would laugh at that. I assure you it wasn't intended to be a joke. Perhaps this isn't the place where true reflection can be revealed. I would be foolish to expect otherwise. Nonetheless, I wish you luck. Should you decide to examine your life closer, I look forward to hearing about what you discover.

Well...you were calling me "delusional".... so call it self-deprecating laughter?

I guess I've been called worse. Especially here!

[Optimistic Mysanthrope]

@Texas Sailor
I had a feeling you were gonna do something like that. If that really was you're intention all along, then shame on you.

Having said that, your avatar is my favourite character from one of my favourite films so I'll let you off this time

[The Reality Salesman01]

Anytime. I understand why you didn't want to answer my question pertaining to delusion. The definition came from Webster btw. I copy and pasted. I took no liberties with that. I'm not sure why you would laugh at that. I assure you it wasn't intended to be a joke. Perhaps this isn't the place where true reflection can be revealed. I would be foolish to expect otherwise. Nonetheless, I wish you luck. Should you decide to examine your life closer, I look forward to hearing about what you discover.

Well...you were calling me "delusional".... so call it self-deprecating laughter?

I guess I've been called worse. Especially here!

I was asking you how you knew that you weren't delusional. Can you explain it to me so that it is distinguishable from delusion? I didn't call you anything. I was asking questions. Remember? I said I wouldn't do that.

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@Texas Sailor
I had a feeling you were gonna do something like that. If that really was you're intention all along, then shame on you.

Having said that, your avatar is my favourite character from one of my favourite films so I'll let you off this time

OM, what an ugly thing to say. I appall ugliness, does this mean we aren't friends anymore?

[Brakeman]

So how do these divine communiques reach you? It's really hard to get a straight answer from most christians, beyond that it's not a literal voice that they hear. It'd be really useful, going ahead, to have an understanding of how this guidance manifests.

As far as my communications with God? I ask Him. Does He always answer? Yes, but not in the usual ways.

I'll share one, fine example. My mom was rushed to a local hospital ..
. We held hands and prayed that "God's will be done". I told God that I was trusting Him, whether He wanted my mom or not. I knew there was a good reason." ..

I left that chapel with TOTAL TRUST IN GOD! He rewarded my trust with my mom's life. And if she died. I'd feel the same today.

So in effect, you got no answer at all, you merely attributed an outcome to gods will. You didn't even know what god's will was going to be but you prayed for it, asking for nothing!

This is like praying to my mailbox to be full or not, whatever the magic mailbox wishes!

Now obviously, given the bible stories, not all people fail to get a true voice with communication from god, or else they are lying. What's wrong with you so that god doesn't want to talk to you? Is he too busy? Is jesus just so burnt out on it all that he doesn't care any longer?

[Whateverist]

There are reasons we have terms such as self deception, and delusion.

In deed there are because the phenomenon is pervasive. But much of what we generally accept as normal to assume is cut from the same fabric. Our brains routinely present us with perception and cognition which are preprocessed for our conscious consumption. When it is adaptive, who cares? It isn't a problem so long as it doesn't create any problems, but they leave behind blind spots. Stage magicians are expert at exploiting these blind spots to fool us.

Another normal form of self deception is the sort an actor or novelist engages in to create a character. To be effective, they need to suspend disbelief. If they don't 'become' the character they can't adequately portray it to us. Some people even think we deceive ourselves into thinking we have free will. Our psyches are malleable.

I suspect that if you instruct a child to pray and talk to God from a young age and do it yourself with great sincerity while keeping them immersed in a community of like minded people, the child's psyche will respond with a manifestation of 'God'. (I'm not sure why I bother with scare quotes: it isn't as though this God has any other existence.) Just as the actor and novelist suspend disbelief when they create other characters, so too does the child. On top of that, the child was never aware of having created the character as it was accomplished socially rather than as the result of his individual intent.

When a Christian tells you God is as real or more real to them than you are, I can believe them. Are they deceiving themselves? Yes just as we all do all the time in so many ways. If they are happy and successful in life, what does it matter?

[Godscreated]

@ Texas Sailor, this is why I said I would not discuss this except in person, you said you were interested in learning more about God and scriptures, when your only intent was to try and deconvert someone to bring you self satisfaction. I applaud Ronedee, the answers given were truthful and from the heart God gave. You have trouble with not knowing God, it was apparent when you stated you were baptized twice. You were trying to make it work, you should have allowed God to make it work.

GC

[The Reality Salesman01]

Hmm...that's one take on it. All I did was ask questions, and most of them remain unanswered. When you're ready to answer the question I asked you, I'm all ears. Of course, I understand why you continue to avoid it. In case you forgot:

Does God approve of something because it is Holy?

-or

Is something Holy because God approves it?

Surely someone that runs around here proclaiming to have a firm grasp on God's will knows how to determine what it is that makes ones actions holy or otherwise...

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I'm not at all sure what being in person has to do with being able to provide a legitimate answer to a straight forward question.

If my questions are so hard to answer, perhaps you should ask yourself why that is instead of thinking me the bad guy. I've considered these questions, I've been a Christian. I know why you get defensive. Keep in mind GC, only one of us understands both of our positions, and it's not you. All you see is trees. I see the whole forest.

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P.S.S.

If you take offense when your religious views are challenged, then it's probably not wise to join an Atheist Forum and solicit Theistic views. If you don't like ice cream, stay out of The Ice Cream Parlor. Get it?

[Godscreated]

Hmm...that's one take on it. All I did was ask questions, and most of them remain unanswered. When you're ready to answer the question I asked you, I'm all ears. Of course, I understand why you continue to avoid it.

No you were leading to a deceptive end, your only care is to deconvert.

In case you forgot:

Does God approve of something because it is Holy?

-or

Is something Holy because God approves it?

If I remember I told you it was neither.

Surely someone that runs around here proclaiming to have a firm grasp on God's will knows how to determine what it is that makes ones actions holy or otherwise...

I know exactly what God considers holy, the scriptures describe it well.

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I'm not at all sure what being in person has to do with being able to provide a legitimate answer to a straight forward question.

Looking someone in the eyes is the easiest way to determine their intentions, yes I could answer the question, and yes it's straight forward, it's your intention that's not straight forward as you have proven.

If my questions are so hard to answer, perhaps you should ask yourself why that is instead of thinking me the bad guy. I've considered these questions, I've been a Christian. I know why you get defensive. Keep in mind GC, only one of us understands both of our positions, and it's not you. All you see is trees. I see the whole forest.

You have no hard questions. You assume Christians have not considered the things you did to lose their faith, you assume if we had we would no longer be Christians. Well you're wrong, and I would bet the Christians here have gone deeper into questioning God than you ever did, ever consider that's why we are not fooled by the ridiculousness of what atheist have to say, could it be true we've already worked through much with God. That's what you need to consider.

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P.S.S.

If you take offense when your religious views are challenged, then it's probably not wise to join an Atheist Forum and solicit Theistic views. If you don't like ice cream, stay out of The Ice Cream Parlor. Get it?

I do not take offense at challenges to my knowledge of God, I do take offense when others think I practice religion or when insults are hurled because I believe differently than atheist do. I do like ice cream but ice cream is not what's served here. I mostly see horse hocky.

GC

[The Reality Salesman01]

you were leading to a deceptive end, your only care is to deconvert.

The end I expect can easily be changed by the answers provided for my questions. I anticipate the conversation will ultimately arrive at its usual point, yes. However, this doesn’t mean that it necessarily has to.

Does God approve of something because it is Holy?

-or

Is something Holy because God approves it?

If I remember I told you it was neither.

Should I ask the question that’s being begged, or do I just assume you don’t know?

Surely someone that runs around here proclaiming to have a firm grasp on God's will knows how to determine what it is that makes ones actions holy or otherwise...

I know exactly what God considers holy, the scriptures describe it well.

So something is holy if it is in the scriptures? If this is true, then any interpretation of the scripture can be equally viewed as holy. But, I don’t think this is true, and I don’t think you do either.
Clearly you know of some standard by which the scriptures are determined to be holy. The floor is yours. I don’t feel that I’m being at all threatening here, I’m just asking questions.

I'm not at all sure what being in person has to do with being able to provide a legitimate answer to a straight forward question.

Looking someone in the eyes is the easiest way to determine their intentions, yes I could answer the question, and yes it's straight forward, it's your intention that's not straight forward as you have proven.

My intentions are evident in my questions. My goal is to examine what you say you know to be true. If it is true, then I will adopt it. I will have no choice. I will be incapable of avoiding it.
If your words are convincing enough, I will believe you. That's how it works. If your message is not as convincing as you had hoped, try again. Try a different tact. The things you say have the potential of reinforcing my lack of belief, but it could also change it entirely, or even replace it.
If you think that not looking in my eyes is somehow a barrier in properly conveying your message, then I am sure I don’t understand, as that is only a requirement should your plan be to hypnotize me, and I doubt very seriously that’s what you aim to do.

You assume Christians have not considered the things you did to lose their faith, you assume if we had we would no longer be Christians

I assume from things observed. It is not a blind assumption. If you think I am wrong, provide me with answers that show me different. If you choose not to, then you are not in a position to criticize my assumption. Wouldn't you agree?

Christians here have gone deeper into questioning God than you ever did, ever consider that's why we are not fooled by the ridiculousness of what atheist have to say

That may be, I don't deny it. If you know it to be true, then share with me your answers. I know from my own experience what answers were available when I sought God, and it is this experience combined with the testimony shared by people such as yourself that empower my assumptions.

Did I consider that your questioning of God gave you answers that make my question appear ridiculous?

I considered my personal experience as a Christian, and retrospectively I assess the psychological barriers that prevented me from truly questioning God without fear or artificial guilt. I remember the state of denial which instilled a sense of artificial confidence about my faith in the face of adversity.

This artificial confidence shielded me from the reality of my beliefs. For me, looking back, “Faith” was pretending to know things I did not know.

By pretending to have such answers for so long, I started to actually believe it. This sense of entitlement to answers would cause me to dismiss challenges such as these as being too “ridiculous” to warrant my attention.


In short, given your responses, or lack there of in some cases, you fit into my assumption perfectly. If you say that I am wrong, tell me why, and explain yourself.

I don’t doubt that you’ve questioned God, but I suspect you do so in much the same way that I did, which is to say, blinded by confirmation bias and a false sense of enlightenment. So far, that's the impression your responses have left on me.

could it be true we've already worked through much with God. That's what you need to consider.

It is that very thing I consider when I offer you the opportunity to share what you’ve claimed to discover. I have said over and over again that I do not deny this a possibility, however, my doubt of it actually being true increases at every failed attempt to establish such truth.

You say you have the answers that you’ve discovered through God.
I do not, so I ask the questions in hopes of examining your claims.
If you don’t answer them, it is unclear why you would criticize my skepticism toward your claim.

I do not take offense at challenges to my knowledge of God, I do take offense when others think I practice religion or when insults are hurled because I believe differently than atheist do

Retrace any honest exchange you and I have had, specifically, this one. I am giving you the floor, and asking you direct questions that you have claimed to have answers to. The choice to answer them is obviously yours, but be aware of the reasons you provide should you ignore them. If I’ve provided you with an unobstructed opportunity for you to present your case, and you decline, then it is you that has failed to present information, and not an unwillingness on my part to listen

[Esquilax]

I do not take offense at challenges to my knowledge of God, I do take offense when others think I practice religion or when insults are hurled because I believe differently than atheist do. I do like ice cream but ice cream is not what's served here. I mostly see horse hocky.

GC

You wanna know the best way to avoid getting insulted? It's to quit being so evasive and hostile, and actually answer questions posed to you in a neutral manner. The problem is that you come into threads like this, started with honest intent of not having to put words into the mouths of believers like yourself, you never fully answer the questions, you insult the intelligence of everyone in the room that voices a contention, and then act surprised when public opinion turns against you!

You aren't being insulted because you believe something different than us, GC: a casual look at how we interact with other believers here should be more than enough evidence of that. There's a newbie christian who started a thread today, asking for what we thought of as problems with christianity, and because he's been addressing our points and acting like a human being, he's gotten nothing but respect and level treatment in return.

The problem isn't what you believe, GC. It's how you act.