Conversions

[freedomfromforum]

Getting rid of religion isn't going to get rid of stupidity. I'd rather get rid of the latter.

Unfortunately, stupid cannot be fixed.

Ah yes, but doing away with religion may hobble stupidity a bit, as it disperses its operations base.

[thesummerqueen]

Unfortunately, stupid cannot be fixed.

Ah yes, but doing away with religion may hobble stupidity a bit, as it disperses its operations base.

You clearly haven't been to new age or alien conventions.

[Anomalocaris]

Getting rid of religion isn't going to get rid of stupidity. I'd rather get rid of the latter.

Unfortunately, stupid cannot be fixed.

No, but it can be neutered.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Personally, I recognize religion to be the evil that it is. An ideology/belief that is based completely on bullshit and fear, with enough "good parts" to stop it from being weeded out because it comes as a package deal. I think it's good that there are people fighting against religion, I wouldn't mind doing so myself. But I don't talk theists in my life out of their religion. The way I respond to an ideology is different from how I treat people. They like to discuss religion with me (I find this kind of odd because these people come from rather religious families but apparently they feel they cannot talk about how they actually feel about some of the teachings), and I don't mind discussing these things, I say what I feel and I try to get them to see their religion through my lens. But if I have any agenda it would be for them to view their own religions objectively and fairly, not just pretend like the bad stuff isn't there, I think that's what I do try to do because it's just so hard to talk to someone who insists that the bad ones aren't "real muslims" or "real christians".

[Esquilax]

This whole idea of conversions is a bit silly, isn't it?

As an atheist, I'm not here to convince anyone my position is correct, because I'm only ever tentatively sure that it is, and willing to change it should new evidence arise. My only concern, when it comes to religious people, is that they do the same; I'm not shilling for godlessness, I'm not trying to make everyone atheist, I'm trying to get everyone to ask a simple question: do my beliefs comport with reality, as closely as I can make them?

That should be one's only motivation, when it comes to claims about reality. It's important. I think it's easy, when we're discussing religion and the atheist side is disagreeing with religious arguments, to think that this is because the atheists have a side of their own, when generally they don't. Let's be clear: if I disagree with you it's got nothing to do with my worldview coming into conflict with your religious ideas. It's because I think your argument is bad.

That's the cool thing about being an agnostic atheist: if you provide me with a good argument, it will be considered, matched up with the facts as best as I can do so, and enclosed within my worldview. This is the way to change a mind, and you can change my mind. Just don't think that means I'm not going to interrogate every argument you make in terms of factual accuracy, motivation, and logical consistency. Kalam won't do it, here.

So there's no conversion going on here, because in this tug of war, the atheist is the rope, not the opposing side. I'm not tugging in one direction, I'm pulling in both. To properly labor the metaphor, reality is the opposing side, and that's what christianity is seemingly pulling against.

[NoraBrimstone]

Stephen Fry quote.

"Homosexuals are not interested in making other people homosexual

Homophobic people are interested in making other people homophobic "

I'll extend to

Christians are interested in making other people Christians.

And the last sentence is?

Muslims are interested in making other people Muslims.

[Mystical]

Stephen Fry quote.

"Homosexuals are not interested in making other people homosexual

Homophobic people are interested in making other people homophobic "


Christians are interested in making other people Christians.

Atheists want to live their lives in peace.


Since the above is damn near impossible with religions of all kinds inciting hate and unrest (seemingly tied to any benefits they have to offer), and being involved in the very foundations of our society like law making: I'd say that as an atheist, I've had to change my wills in response. Now I'd finish the sentence as:

Atheists are interested in secular equality for all and religious freedom.


Good thread Jacob

[Whateverist]

Nononono! I'm genuinely not trying to make any point, I'm actually asking a question! I know the position of Christians on atheists, to try to convert them. But the concept of a whole community of self defined atheists is new to me. I'm curious to know what, individually, people's feelings about theist conversions are.

Is there quite satisfaction? Complete indifference? Desire to set people free, morpheus style? The feeling that the world would be a better place without religion (which of course means you would be improving the world by converting or deprograming a theist)?

I like diversity. If every last man wore a white shirt and tie and carried the book of Mormon, the world would be much the poorer, less interesting place. I wish the heavy duty proselytizing religions would back to fuck off. Hindus are the best in this regard.

That said, I'm in no rush to lose the varieties of religious expression we see today. It is fascinating to observe what people do and wonder at how this scratches some itch within the human psyche. There are snake kissers, tongue speakers, those who seek visions through pain, those who fast for guidance, those who get together weekly to chant things in a dead language and some who wear animal heads while attempting to channel their spirits. As much as I would hate a homogenized Mormon or Catholic world, I would be no happier to see a purely rational human world.

---

Is there quite satisfaction? Complete indifference? Desire to set people free, morpheus style? The feeling that the world would be a better place without religion (which of course means you would be improving the world by converting or deprograming a theist)?

I think that there is a sense that the world would be in better shape without religion, but I think most atheists would also recognize that it's not likely to work that way. Religion is one of the many ways in which humans separate themselves into social groups that allow them to identify friends and enemies. We use things as important as politics and social ideals and as unimportant as sports teams to create those groups and define those boundaries. My fear is that in a world without religion, we'd find something else to take its place as a great and terrible divider of people.

In my day-to-day life I make no effort to convert anyone, but even as a Christian I was careful to respect people's desire not to be preached to outside of the organized activity (yes, I was one of those annoying JWs who always managed to ring the doorbell when it was most inconvenient to do so). Since I don't go door-to-door for atheism, it's not a subject that comes up very often.

You are such a reasonable person. Every time you mention having been brought up a Jehovah's Witness, I am shocked all over again. Says something good about the elasticity of our minds and human potential generally.