Is it too early or late to judge the enlightenment?

[LostLocke]

Already flooding the forum with idiocy...nice of you to share with others.

Get used to it. This is all he's going to do while here.

[bennyboy]

The answer is subjective. What one man deems enlightenment, another deems as folly. This conversation is a circle jerk from the word go.

The word and it's connotations have been used by many historians. The manner in which it is commonly used is what I am referring to. Has our ways if thinking about ourselves made us better human beings?

Apparently, the enlightenment has not improved spelling and grammar very much.

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Also democracy and tolerance.

Democracy has been a failure in every aspect. Democracy has never been synonymous with more freedom or liberty.

Are we more tolerant today than in the past?

Yes, we are more tolerant today than in the past. Thanks, Enlightenment!

/thread

[theyear12013]

The Enlightenment has benefited society materially, but spiritually it has not sufficiently fought for its place other than through 'political' and academic discourse and participation (ie citizen before the law etc). "Global citizenship" is a palliative that masks the still supreme position Abrahamic faiths have had since the conversion of Rome. Can the Enlightenment once and for all move humanity past Jerusalem and Rome? Can we forge a new holy place?

[downbeatplumb]

The Enlightenment has benefited society materially, but spiritually it has not sufficiently fought for its place other than through 'political' and academic discourse and participation (ie citizen before the law etc). "Global citizenship" is a palliative that masks the still supreme position Abrahamic faiths have had since the conversion of Rome. Can the Enlightenment once and for all move humanity past Jerusalem and Rome? Can we forge a new holy place?

Why would we want a "new holy place"?

[I and I]

The Enlightenment has benefited society materially, but spiritually it has not sufficiently fought for its place other than through 'political' and academic discourse and participation (ie citizen before the law etc). "Global citizenship" is a palliative that masks the still supreme position Abrahamic faiths have had since the conversion of Rome. Can the Enlightenment once and for all move humanity past Jerusalem and Rome? Can we forge a new holy place?

Why would we want a "new holy place"?

My beef with the enlightenment is not that it has moved us away from "holy places" but the opposite, my complain is that is not moved us away from "holy places". Modern holy places have replaced old ones and are just as stupid. Instead of looking to old made up stories we look to new trend in fashion, idolize "worship" celebrities spend hours watching them in weekly rituals in front of tv. The churches of sports stadiums and the gods of celebrities and the cult of "the individual" are just as utterly stupid as the old religions and traditions they have replaced.

Next

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The Enlightenment has benefited society materially, but spiritually it has not sufficiently fought for its place other than through 'political' and academic discourse and participation (ie citizen before the law etc). "Global citizenship" is a palliative that masks the still supreme position Abrahamic faiths have had since the conversion of Rome. Can the Enlightenment once and for all move humanity past Jerusalem and Rome? Can we forge a new holy place?

Why would we want a "new holy place"?

My beef with the enlightenment is not that it has moved us away from "holy places" but the opposite, my complain is that is not moved us away from "holy places". Modern holy places have replaced old ones and are just as stupid. Instead of looking to old made up stories we look to new trend in fashion, idolize "worship" celebrities spend hours watching them in weekly rituals in front of tv. The churches of sports stadiums and the gods of celebrities and the cult of "the individual" are just as utterly stupid as the old religions and traditions they have replaced.

Next

[theyear12013]

Because as evidenced by the millions who do Haj yearly and the millions who go to Jerusalem or millions who pay respect to Graceland, pilgrimage is part of the human species and a secular scientific enlightenment pilgrimage is a way to communicate the values that you and I probably share, and truly embed and codify them in any society. American citizens 'civic' pilgrimage to Washington DC is not sufficient and should not become a place of awe since enlightenment politics should not be deified. There is huge value in my opinion of a holy site where common people can stand in awe of the 10000 years of recorded human history and millions of years of evolution -- where those who believe these things can celebrate the shear awesomeness of such a history compared to the shorter and sillier timelines that the Abrahamic holy sites promote. Only then can we move on from the Abrahamic era. Until the common man with his daily struggles can feel pride for his past and his future in the system of 'secular' life and death, where evolution and secular survival is celebrated as a thing of wonder not just science, then modernity might finally have won. Until you displace the feelings of pride and awe that Abrahamic faiths provide people, the modern world will continue to live with them. And let's start with throwing out the year 2013.

Why would we want a "new holy place"?

My beef with the enlightenment is not that it has moved us away from "holy places" but the opposite, my complain is that is not moved us away from "holy places". Modern holy places have replaced old ones and are just as stupid. Instead of looking to old made up stories we look to new trend in fashion, idolize "worship" celebrities spend hours watching them in weekly rituals in front of tv. The churches of sports stadiums and the gods of celebrities and the cult of "the individual" are just as utterly stupid as the old religions and traditions they have replaced.

Next

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Why would we want a "new holy place"?

My beef with the enlightenment is not that it has moved us away from "holy places" but the opposite, my complain is that is not moved us away from "holy places". Modern holy places have replaced old ones and are just as stupid. Instead of looking to old made up stories we look to new trend in fashion, idolize "worship" celebrities spend hours watching them in weekly rituals in front of tv. The churches of sports stadiums and the gods of celebrities and the cult of "the individual" are just as utterly stupid as the old religions and traditions they have replaced.

Next

[Raven]

2013 wrote: pilgrimage is part of the human species

Not for everybody. What the fuck for? It is a monumentally dumb-ass idea on the face of it. Nothing is sacred. Nothing should be sacred. The very idea of the sacred is devaluing to us as human beings.

Each other is all we have, or ever will have. It would serve us all well to treat each other accordingly.

To Mao Tse Troll:

Even if we achieve gigantic successes in our work, there is no reason whatsoever to feel conceited and arrogant. Modesty helps one to go forward, whereas conceit makes one lag behind. This is a truth we must always bear in mind. -Chairman Mao

Seeing as you have achieved nothing but fail, you really have nada to feel arrogant aboutt. Don't go away mad, just go away.

[theyear12013]

Just a small correction -- I'm quoted as 2013. Its 12013, because I reject the entire framework of Abrahamic relevance and prominence in human history or that the conversion of Rome is some important milestone in human history we should celebrate. My advocacy for pilgrimage is not for you or the people on this forum who are strong independent thinkers whose seeds of nonbelief possibly grew on stony soil, my advocacy is about society and those who require rich and deep soil to survive. Many Atheists in the world like Dawkins dismiss ritual and community aspects of religion at their peril IMHO. How else do you explain the resurgence of Abrahamic faith in the US, in the Muslim world, in Israel? If you don't build alternatives to compete with them not just on the basis of rational individual utility but with ritual, pilgrimage, community, the calendar system etc -- how will you truly displace them? There is a way to do it without recreating a fascist outlook. Its the holy site of questioning, where you don't go to worship the Earth or evolution or the stars, but to stand in awe that we exist at all in any of it and have survived this long and have just started to truly figure it out.

2013 wrote: pilgrimage is part of the human species

Not for everybody. What the fuck for? It is a monumentally dumb-ass idea on the face of it. Nothing is sacred. Nothing should be sacred. The very idea of the sacred is devaluing to us as human beings.

Each other is all we have, or ever will have. It would serve us all well to treat each other accordingly.

To Mao Tse Troll:

Even if we achieve gigantic successes in our work, there is no reason whatsoever to feel conceited and arrogant. Modesty helps one to go forward, whereas conceit makes one lag behind. This is a truth we must always bear in mind. -Chairman Mao

Seeing as you have achieved nothing but fail, you really have nada to feel arrogant aboutt. Don't go away mad, just go away.

[Raven]

theyear12013 wrote:

Just a small correction -- I'm quoted as 2013. Its 12013, because I reject the entire framework of Abrahamic relevance and prominence in human history or that the conversion of Rome is some important milestone in human history we should celebrate. My advocacy for pilgrimage is not for you or the people on this forum who are strong independent thinkers whose seeds of nonbelief possibly grew on stony soil, my advocacy is about society and those who require rich and deep soil to survive. Many Atheists in the world like Dawkins dismiss ritual and community aspects of religion at their peril IMHO. How else do you explain the resurgence of Abrahamic faith in the US, in the Muslim world, in Israel? If you don't build alternatives to compete with them not just on the basis of rational individual utility but with ritual, pilgrimage, community, the calendar system etc -- how will you truly displace them? There is a way to do it without recreating a fascist outlook. Its the holy site of questioning, where you don't go to worship the Earth or evolution or the stars, but to stand in awe that we exist at all in any of it and have survived this long and have just started to truly figure it out.

Sorry about that. You may indeed have a point there now that you lay it out a bit more. It does indeed seem to "get" people in some kind of emotional, non-rational way. That is why it never appealed to me. Guess I came on a bit strong. That's because it really bugs me. Not what you wrote, but the whole business of ritual, pilgrimage, etc. But that's me it does nothing for, and I'm not everybody. I think perhaps you may be on to something there.

[Ryantology]

The Enlightenment is why Godschild, Drich and Lion IRC are marginalized lunatics and not representatives of the ruling class.