Grades vs Education

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I don't think the entitlement of the students is directly a reflection of child-rearing in the last few decades. There has been a pretty significant cultural shift over the last century. Who were the most famous people of the centuries prior? They were the novelists and scientists and intellectuals. It was expected that you would value your character above all other things. Since the early 1900's however, we seem to have shifted towards a culture of personality and public perception of our personality instead of character (this is not my own thesis, for that I would point you towards a book by Susan Cain called "Quiet").

Good point. I made a point of not generalising my experiences to all students because I know there are a lot of them they actually do the work and want to learn more about it.

But I think you're pretty much spot on regarding character and personality. Thanks for recommending the book, will check it out.

[TheBeardedDude]

I have several students each semester who genuinely care, which is nice. Most just want to slide by with whatever grade they earn. But a significant number just want more because they want it.

The book is great so far. It is about extroversion vs introversion, written for introverts mainly.

[Kayenneh]

In elementary, junoir high and high school I think that grades are important, especially since they matter when you apply to universities. As for uni, I couldn't care less about grades, I would be satisified with a simple pass/fail mentality. I get to prove my skills during a 6 month vocational training, so doing a great job in the field means much more, and once I get my licence, no one will ever ask for my report card.

[TheBeardedDude]

In elementary, junoir high and high school I think that grades are important, especially since they matter when you apply to universities. As for uni, I couldn't care less about grades, I would be satisified with a simple pass/fail mentality. I get to prove my skills during a 6 month vocational training, so doing a great job in the field means much more, and once I get my licence, no one will ever ask for my report card.

But the issue here is that you are training kids at the K-12 level to attain high grades and not a better education. Don't get me wrong, I understand the value of A-F as far as an evaluation of your level of knowledge, but grades seem far too artificially inflated.

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I like the pass/fail idea for grad school. I don't take classes now because I am trying to get an A, but because I am trying to learn the necessary information to apply to research. The grade is a bothersome addition (my grades are typically B-A in grad school too, but they are not an accurate reflection of what I take the classes for).

[TaraJo]

No, but there is too much emphasis on testing.

Forced to agree with this.

We don't teach people to learn or think, we teach them to memorize facts and spit them out in short bursts.

[bennyboy]

I ran an English school for a few years (owned and ran, that is). I sometimes hired "big guns," people with honors coming from Ivy League schools with big student loans and bigger egos. Almost invariably, they sucked as teachers, for the same reasons they succeeded as students in that environment-- they were overly pedantic and took few risks, and they really believed they were the "cream of the crop," and should be deferred too. They also had a complete disregard for the effect they had on others, for example whether their students were interested in their classes.

I learned quickly to test people's basic competence of English grammar on my own, diploma be damned, and then to throw them off their rehearsed "job interview" scripts right away. I ended up getting a lot of people with "B" averages who were humorous, resilient (living in Korea sucks), and modest enough to listen to direction and follow them without telling me how whatever great systems they just pulled out of their asses 2 seconds ago were better than my 20 years of experience. Many good times were had by all, and the stick-in-the-muds ended up being shown the front door, precious diplomas and all.

On the other side of the story, I recommend getting an education in job skills that you can apply ON YOUR OWN to benefit: psych courses, business admin or marketing courses, math courses, etc. etc. Don't take a fucking philosopy of French poetry degree or some BS like that-- if you like those subjects, a library card and a bus pass will get you all the "education" you need. You need to be able to head out into the market and make your own economic niche-- because the days of landing a reliable position and getting incremental raises over the course of 30 or 40 years until you are financially secure are OVER. You have to be a pit fighter, a carpe diem, no-holds-barred money maker, no matter where you are or what you current circumstances.

That's my advice-- get the straight-A grades if at all possible, but more than that, prepare yourself to make your own way in life, rather than begging a series of employers to string you along on THEIR profitable ventures.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

The emphasis students put on grades reflect the emphasis the society puts on grades. Try getting a scholarship with bad grades, you probably won't even make it to university. If you don't have good grades you won't get into universities, grad schools, professional schools, etc. etc. And it's really hard to compete for opportunities within your program if you do not have good grades. Every single job interview I've had that is even slightly related to my studies, they've asked for my transcript. And that's the first thing they want to talk about at the interview. I've been a student my entire life and yes I put a lot of emphasis on my grades but that's not to say that I like doing that. I like to learn, I don't like to feel like I need to perform a specific way to a specific level to be allowed to stay in the game, but that's what reality is.

Also about science students not having lab experience, you really cannot fault students for that. There are a lot of students in science programs and universities only give them basic lab courses in their first and second years, many techniques they don't learn until they get higher up or get a gig in a lab. But if you haven't done some sort of research project after your second year, your resume is going to look horrible, so this is the time you go out and get something despite having no experience in it. But it's not possible to expect 100% of the students to get these sort of opportunities, usually those that do are those with good grades or good connections. And not every science student likes research or lab work, there's plenty you can do in science that isn't related to lab work. Universities are failing in this department, if they are truly there to provide education then why do students have to venture out and find other ways to learn? Universities are there so we can earn our qualifications, it's no longer about education, education is something that you have to take care of on your own time.

[Jacob(smooth)]

Main issue with some undergrads I've found is their expectancy, or rather, their belief that they deserve a good grade for just turning up.

Oh my yes.

Personally I'm much in favor of grades and testing. I sort of have to be. Podiatry is a medical discipline and we have a duty of care to the future patients of the students we grade! Without a robust system of assessment, grading and yes, testing, we might well end up releasing people into clinical practice who are not safe. Although I'm only really interested in two grades, safe of fail. The other grades are mere measures of how far someone is from unsafe.

I also think testing is a good idea, and stress testing at that. One cannot simulate some of the stressful situations one will encounter, they always know that it is "just a test". However if people are unable to cope with a stressful exam or clinical viva then they will also be unable to cope with an abusive patient, a bleeder or a clinical emergency.

When I deliver the anaphalaxis training I make the students open, draw up and simulate delivery of adrenalin whilst holding their breath. That is nowhere near the level of stress and adrenalisation they will experience the first time someone swells up and starts choking in front of them... but its a start. Its amazing how much of a difference that makes.

I once had a student get as far as dressing a toe she'd removed a nail from... without removing the tourniquet. . Her excuse was that she was feeling pressured because I was watching her and asking questions. She was most surprised when I did a Gandalf....

[Darth]

2) If a grade was recorded incorrectly, that is a legitimate concern but often the mistake is nonexistent or is one where a grade was incorrectly entered but has no net effect on the course grade because the change was minimal.

It depends on the lecturer, the reason I do this is because I'm going for honours and need every mark I can get. Early on in a psych course (god I hate psych units) they made a very minor error in marking my essay (in APA format you don't have to repeat the year the second time you cite the same article within the same paragraph if they are within-text references, so I didn't do so, and got a cross for it). This marking error would not have affected every student, I doubt it would have affected anybody else really. Nevertheless, pointing out this error earnt me a much needed extra 4% (on an essay worth 50%, so a 2% bump to my final grade in that unit), and everybody else marked by that tutor got an extra 4% as well (I was quite popular that day). I've tried it again with other lecturers, and the response has ranged from a "yeah you're right, but it's not enough to have affected your mark" to "oh, here's an extra 1 or 2%". So yeah, I'm gunna be knocking on your door, essay in hand, blame the other lecturers and tutors who make it worth my while.

The reason I'm obsessed with my grades, as bunny was saying, is that I need to a) get into honours and b) achieve well enough in honours to get into the best uni for what I want to study for my masters and I want to get merit scholarships (I lack boobies and melanin, so no handouts for me ;P). As a high school dropout I wasn't eligible for the best uni's initially, I need to starting moving up.

I only bother attending those psych classes PURELY for the grade, I really can't stand psych.
Maybe uni's having requirements like that is an issue, making us do units we don't need or care for so that we are 'well rounded'.

[Jacob(smooth)]

[quote='Stue Denim' pid='564920' dateline='1387272305']

2) (I lack boobies and melanin, so no handouts for me).

Ah Try medicine in the UK. Can you do "white and posh and male"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdmiOhpqlLI