Persecuted Christians

[NonXNonExX]

I have no doubt there would still be murder and that some murders done now in the name of religion have ulterior motives behind them.

That being said, without religion there would have been and would be significantly less violence in the world.

You actually believe that? How cute...

"Imagine no religion, it's easy if you try."　Ｉ　ａｌｓｏ　ｂｅｌｉｅｖｅ　ｉｔ．

[theyear12013]

Violence exists between groups over resources, over sex, over decision making etc etc. But actually the amount of violence in the modern world is quite low. Our population explosion is proof since more people are not dead than ever existed, rather more people are alive.

The one thing Abrahamic religions gave us was materialism, not a bad achievement. But their gods and customs and religious pilgrimage locations are phony.

[Esquilax]

To take your example of gay people beaten because the bible said to do so. Is that the prime reason? Or is it just because those people are violent and spiteful bigots who find, in religion, legitimation for their violence and bigotry.

They furnish only biblical justification for doing what they do? That's scarcely proof. It is the justification, but not therefore necessarily the reason. But it sounds better to them than "I'm a scared repressed bully trying to cope with feelings i don't understand"

I agree with you in part, in the sense that I'm dead sure there are people who are using the bible, or any other religious document, as justification for pre-existing bigotry. But at the same time, I'm not willing to reinterpret people's motivations beyond the ones they've stated, simply because... well, where would I stop? Besides, I'm fairly sure that if you took the number of violent acts for which religious justifications are used, and subtracted the number of times those justifications masked something deeper, you'd still end up with a positive number; after all, religious documents frame themselves as the words of the all knowing creator of reality and the source of moral goodness therein, it's not a huge stretch that the people who believe that to be literally true would also find their actions affected by those words.

Missives from the arbiter of the fate of your eternal soul aren't exactly something to sneeze at.

[Jacob(smooth)]

I agree with you in part, in the sense that I'm dead sure there are people who are using the bible, or any other religious document, as justification for pre-existing bigotry. But at the same time, I'm not willing to reinterpret people's motivations beyond the ones they've stated, simply because... well, where would I stop? Besides, I'm fairly sure that if you took the number of violent acts for which religious justifications are used, and subtracted the number of times those justifications masked something deeper, you'd still end up with a positive number;

Point. Couldn't be a negative. Having said that in the interests of balance, one must also take into account the people who DON'T do violence on account of religion. Both sides of of the equation need to be considered.

after all, religious documents frame themselves as the words of the all knowing creator of reality and the source of moral goodness therein, it's not a huge stretch that the people who believe that to be literally true would also find their actions affected by those words.

Missives from the arbiter of the fate of your eternal soul aren't exactly something to sneeze at.

You'd think! And yet people do don't they. To take Christianity as an example (simply because its the text I know more about) someone who beats a gay person to death with a pipe on account of deuteronomy must also ignore all the stuff about not judging others, turning the other cheek, loving their neighbor etc. And there's a lot, lot more of that.

One of the recurring and I think justified critiques of the bible is that one can find justification within it for almost ANY position. There are contradictions throughout. As such any action of violence is condemned by the bible as well as condoned by it. So regardless, anyone committing an act of violence in the name of the bible IS thumbing his nose at the missive of the arbiter of the fate of your soul.

As I've opined before, the bible is a rorscharch.

[Esquilax]

Point. Couldn't be a negative. Having said that in the interests of balance, one must also take into account the people who DON'T do violence on account of religion. Both sides of of the equation need to be considered.

True, though from where I'm standing the people that are peacefully religious are doing so in spite of their religion; the best case scenario is that all the "peace and love" stuff is merely contradicted by all the "kill everyone who isn't like you," stuff, but there's a case that could be made that the two are compatible, and the subtext is peace and love for the christians, death for anyone different. Jesus himself implies that the salvation, the good stuff, is for the tribe of Israel, while everyone else is akin to dogs.

You'd think! And yet people do don't they. To take Christianity as an example (simply because its the text I know more about) someone who beats a gay person to death with a pipe on account of deuteronomy must also ignore all the stuff about not judging others, turning the other cheek, loving their neighbor etc. And there's a lot, lot more of that.

There is! But there's also a direct order to kill the gays, which seems slightly strange. I mean, it's right there, "shall be put to death." God isn't exactly a straight talker in other areas, to hear the "it's all context and interpretation!" christians, so could you blame those who'd take direct order seriously?

... I mean, other than literally blaming them for their crime?

One of the recurring and I think justified critiques of the bible is that one can find justification within it for almost ANY position. There are contradictions throughout. As such any action of violence is condemned by the bible as well as condoned by it. So regardless, anyone committing an act of violence in the name of the bible IS thumbing his nose at the missive of the arbiter of the fate of your soul.

As I've opined before, the bible is a rorscharch.

Sounds like you're kind of fucked no matter what you do, in that estimation. It's just one big psychological trap to keep you chained to Jesus just to get into heaven.

[Minimalist]

Given the greeks were ok with gay sex it does seem logical to conclude that Abrahamic religions are more anti-gay than the Greeks and hence it is due to the religious customs of said Abrahamic religions.

Actually, dismissing the god shit out of all these writings ( easy for me since there is no evidence for any god but the writings exist ) one can see certain elements of propaganda in them.

In The Bible Unearthed, Israel Finkelstein makes the point that the whole "Lot-getting-fucked-by-his-daughters-and-giving-birth-to-the-founders-of-Edom-and-Moab" could be seen as merely a slur on those two states who were then competitors within the Assyrian economic sphere. Kind of like the ancient equivalent of "ethnic humor" today.

Similarly, one wonders how prevalent homosexuality was among ancient goat herders but we know it was prevalent among the Greeks. Perhaps what we are seeing here is merely a bit of Judaean propaganda against their Greek overlords?

[Polaris]

You actually believe that? How cute...

"Imagine no religion, it's easy if you try."　Ｉ　ａｌｓｏ　ｂｅｌｉｅｖｅ　ｉｔ．

I don't have to imagine it. I have studied the cultures that A. promoted equitable secularism contrasted with those that B. oppressed religious observance.