Dan Barker (atheist) vs Hamza Tzortzis (muslim)

[WesOlsen]

This may seem like a theist style post (paste in a video and run) but I think this debate is well worth a watch. Many of you will probably have seen it already. Dan Barker is awesome, and imho thrashes Hamza (who uses the same intro to every debate even though people like Barker and Krauss have torn it to shreds already) right here. I thought it relevant because many of the arguments that Barker addresses here are the ones put forward by our recent potty visitors (Infinite justice, Kalam's causal argument etc).

[Angrboda]

I saw Barker debate Tzortzis last winter, to a crowd surprisingly packed with a lot of Muslims. Tzortzis was surprisingly effective, no doubt because of his relaxed, cheerful style. Barker, imo, uses too much aggression in his openings, and alienates more than persuades as a result. I talked with Barker a bit at a book signing. He's a real nice guy, in spite of his "bulldog" style of presentation.

[WesOlsen]

From reading his book and watching his debates online I honestly came to the conclusion that he was anything BUT confrontational. I think it's exactly his ability to calmly lay out his reasoning that makes him so effective. I cringe at some of the Tzortzis techniques which are basically arguments from authority paraded as this weird jockular cloud of awkwardness. Most of his retorts in this video revolve around distraction (accusing Barker of being super angry whilst he's really just a quiet little bald man) and pally pleading; 'come on mate be reasonable lets just be cool LOL'. It's like he's conducting his debate through the medium of Bebo or something. The basis of Tzortzis' lecture was, and I basically quote him exactly: 'I know that what Mohammed said was true because he said it'. Somehow, the fact that lots of generations repeated the same story means that Mohammed must have been telling the truth when he received his words of wisdom.............I basically felt genuinely embarrassed at that specific point, as I did at most points in which Hamza resorts to pally jockular retorts, carefully ducking all the hard rebutals necessary to counter Barker's statements, which were effectively sound. The Hamza routine basically consists of 'blah blah you can't have infinite' (I bloody love Krauss demonstrating the concept of Pi to him), a ton of special pleading, a load of really really pathetic claims regarding Arabic being more majestic than any other language, then loads of appeals to 'be reasonable mate'. Krauss was far more aggressive in his dealings imho, but Hamza only really serves to reinforce the opinions of impressionable and unenquiring muslims who aren't really interested in hearing the other side of the argument. Brown's comments regarding the nature of hearsay in the qur'an are sound, and Hamza could have handled it way better than he did, essentially reinforcing what Barker was claiming all along; that muslims know mohammed was telling the truth because he said it. There's a hint of irony in the infinity of this circular reasoning, we could literally go round and round with that one ad infinitum.

[Minimalist]

impressionable and unenquiring muslims

Is there another kind?

[TheOneAndOnly]

At 31:00 Dan Barker stated that he's heard some Muslims says Allah is 'infinitely just' and 'infinitely merciful' and those two contradict each other which they certainly do as if a being is infinitely merciful he will not be able to be infinitely just.

That tells you that Dan Barker knows very little about Islam nor do some of the naive posters on here. Nowhere in Islam is Allah considered 'infinitely just' or 'infinitely merciful.' He is Most Just and Most Merciful. That means more merciful and more just than anybody.

Clever attempt to to substitute the word 'infinitely' for 'most.'

One of the 99 names of Allah is Ar Rahman ( THE MOST MERCIFUL )

I stopped watching there because of that fatal mistake he made that even an atheist with basic thinking skills will tell you.

[Dragonetti]

This is nothing but circular login.

[Zen Badger]

At 31:00 Dan Barker stated that he's heard some Muslims says Allah is 'infinitely just' and 'infinitely merciful' and those two contradict each other which they certainly do as if a being is infinitely merciful he will not be able to be infinitely just.

That tells you that Dan Barker knows very little about Islam nor do some of the naive posters on here. Nowhere in Islam is Allah considered 'infinitely just' or 'infinitely merciful.' He is Most Just and Most Merciful. That means more merciful and more just than anybody.

Clever attempt to to substitute the word 'infinitely' for 'most.'

One of the 99 names of Allah is Ar Rahman ( THE MOST MERCIFUL )

I stopped watching there because of that fatal mistake he made that even an atheist with basic thinking skills will tell you.

And your point?

[pocaracas]

His point seems to be "strawman".
Which seems fair... on that detail...

[NonXNonExX]

impressionable and unenquiring muslims

Is there another kind?

Actually, i have a musician friend from Morocco who claims to be a Moslem, but he doesn't pray 3 times a day and doesn't even own a prayer rug. I think that, where it's allowed at least, there are plenty of nominal or cultural Moslems.

[WesOlsen]

At 31:00 Dan Barker stated that he's heard some Muslims says Allah is 'infinitely just' and 'infinitely merciful' and those two contradict each other which they certainly do as if a being is infinitely merciful he will not be able to be infinitely just.
That tells you that Dan Barker knows very little about Islam nor do some of the naive posters on here. Nowhere in Islam is Allah considered 'infinitely just' or 'infinitely merciful.' He is Most Just and Most Merciful. That means more merciful and more just than anybody.

No it tells you that his version of the qur'an translates it this way in to English, it also tells you that some muslims interpret it this way, and repeat it this way to non-muslims. I have certainly heard muslims describe Allah as infinitely merciful and infinitely just, heck we even have a recent thread or two in this sub-forum in which our resident muslim quacks have tried to defend the concept of being infintely just and infintely merciful. Even if Allah was 'most' merciful and 'most' just then his judge and jury skills are vague and wildly variable; I don't want my judge dishing out punishments depending on how merciful or how just he's feeling on the day. Mercy is the suspension of justice, to be merciful means that justice hasn't been fully done.

I stopped watching there because of that fatal mistake he made that even an atheist with basic thinking skills will tell you.

Let's not talk about basic thinking skills shall we. Such basic thinking skills would suggest that the obvious disparity between the way in which differnt muslims interpret the qur'an shows that it clearly isn't divine in origin. No supernatural being would make his orders for humanity that vague and open to dispute, surely? Many muslims can't agree on the basics, let alone the finer details.