Why We Are, and Forever Will Be, Imperfect

[Edwardo Piet]

What is absolute evidence? I agree the absolute requires strong evidence, but when we are imperfect beings can we ever be certain that the evidence we got is absolute?

Which was my point. By absolute evidence I mean 'proof'. Which we can get in the field of mathematics, but that's only because mathematics is man-made so - I assume at it's base at least? - it is tautological.

Yes my point is that we can't have absolute evidence because we are subjective observers, or agents, in this reality we experience.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

@ VOID,

If, indeed, there can be no way we can possibly comprehend how absolute perfection could actually exist in reality (at least in this reality), then that doesn't mean it cannot exist of course. It just means that we have no (rational) reason to believe it does, I would think.

EvF

[Purple Rabbit]

You misunderstood me.

Absolute perfection is not subjective by definition, the problem is that i doubt very much that such a thing could exist in any real sense outside of purely conceptual thought, so i for now reject the notion of Absolute perfection in favor of subjective interpretations.

It gets a little fuzzy in where to draw the line though, something can be perfect in a specific function, but when you are talking about something so absolutely perfect that there is no need for anything else at all then you need to account for all possible functions this perfection would have to have to be perfect, but you couldn't do it because of the contradictory claims that you would encounter.

I don't think I misunderstood, only that we use different definitions for perfection and absolute.

My 'absolute' is as absolute as can be, i.e. free from any context, not subject to any condition.
When something is perfect in a specific function, it's perfection is related to the specific and by definition not absolute.

You choose to reject the existence of the absolute. I am open to the possibility that the absolute might exist but see no way around the problem that our human capacities are anything but absolute. How can the not-absolute assess absoluteness? Also imo you cannot reason away the absolute completely.

[Edwardo Piet]

Because to reason away the absolute completely, you'd have to reason it away absolutely, which means you yourself would have to be absolute. And since we're not (I would think!!), absolute, it is I think quite fallacious to think that we could absolutely reason away the absolute. That is contradictory I reckon, unless we ourselves are - at least in our reasoning capabilities - absolute.

Thoughts?

EvF

[theVOID]

You misunderstood me.

Absolute perfection is not subjective by definition, the problem is that i doubt very much that such a thing could exist in any real sense outside of purely conceptual thought, so i for now reject the notion of Absolute perfection in favor of subjective interpretations.

It gets a little fuzzy in where to draw the line though, something can be perfect in a specific function, but when you are talking about something so absolutely perfect that there is no need for anything else at all then you need to account for all possible functions this perfection would have to have to be perfect, but you couldn't do it because of the contradictory claims that you would encounter.

I don't think I misunderstood, only that we use different definitions for perfection and absolute.

My 'absolute' is as absolute as can be, i.e. free from any context, not subject to any condition.
When something is perfect in a specific function, it's perfection is related to the specific and by definition not absolute.

You choose to reject the existence of the absolute. I am open to the possibility that the absolute might exist but see no way around the problem that our human capacities are anything but absolute. How can the not-absolute assess absoluteness? Also imo you cannot reason away the absolute completely.

Yes the absolute might exists, i never said it didn't. I'm more concerned with the fact that there is no reason to believe that absolute perfection exists, it certainly arises nowhere other than human thought to my knowledge. I'm not even sure the concept of perfection it's self exists outside of the mind - Blind natural mechanics is situational and subjective, something that failed in one circumstance may be perfect for another situation.

[Purple Rabbit]

What is absolute evidence? I agree the absolute requires strong evidence, but when we are imperfect beings can we ever be certain that the evidence we got is absolute?

Which was my point. By absolute evidence I mean 'proof'. Which we can get in the field of mathematics, but that's only because mathematics is man-made so - I assume at it's base at least? - it is tautological.

Yes my point is that we can't have absolute evidence because we are subjective observers, or agents, in this reality we experience.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Don't be sorry, I was and am not in disagreement with your statement. Just pondering on a definition of absolute evidence. That's were the trouble starts, not just with collecting the evidence itself.

[theVOID]

Because to reason away the absolute completely, you'd have to reason it away absolutely, which means you yourself would have to be absolute. And since we're not (I would think!!), absolute, it is I think quite fallacious to think that we could absolutely reason away the absolute. That is contradictory I reckon, unless we ourselves are - at least in our reasoning capabilities - absolute.

Thoughts?

EvF

You missed the fact that there are more ways to reason than in absolutes, there could be no agnosticism was that the case. We can rationalize in probability just as well (some of us, of course, others are bound to black and white) as in absolutes. For the serious questions in life we are required to, considering we find ourselves unable to honestly know at present.

[Purple Rabbit]

Yes the absolute might exists, i never said it didn't. I'm more concerned with the fact that there is no reason to believe that absolute perfection exists, it certainly arises nowhere other than human thought to my knowledge. I'm not even sure the concept of perfection it's self exists outside of the mind - Blind natural mechanics is situational and subjective, something that failed in one circumstance may be perfect for another situation.

Hmmm. That would make absoluteness dependent on the human mind and lead to intrinsic contradiction.

What about the statement "There is"? Is it absolute or not? Just let me know if if you think it is absolute bullshit.

[theVOID]

Yes the absolute might exists, i never said it didn't. I'm more concerned with the fact that there is no reason to believe that absolute perfection exists, it certainly arises nowhere other than human thought to my knowledge. I'm not even sure the concept of perfection it's self exists outside of the mind - Blind natural mechanics is situational and subjective, something that failed in one circumstance may be perfect for another situation.

Hmmm. That would make absoluteness dependent on the human mind and lead to intrinsic contradiction.

What about the statement "There is"? Is it absolute or not? Just let me know if if you think it is absolute bullshit.

Therefore the absolute is not absolute, it is subjective.

I don't know how you got the idea that i have a problem with absolutes, that is not the case. What i have a problem with is absolute perfection, i think the term it's self is nonsensical because perfection is a subjective thing, there is no evidence at all to suggest that perfection can be absolute and therefore no reason at all to assume that it is true.

[Edwardo Piet]

Just because I didn't mention agnosticism does not mean I was ruling it out. I am of course agnostic on the matter of absolute truths/perfection, etc.. I just no of no evidence for them, and therefore no reason to believe.

@ Purple Rabbit, well, lol, when I said "sorry", I was being polite - it's not like there was something to feel remorse about. But, I take it that you were just being polite in return

I believe that 'absolute perfection' is unknowable by mortal observers such as ourselves, for we cannot absolutely know that it does or does not exist. Because in order for that to be possible, we would have to have absolute powers of perfection ourselves, we would perhaps have to be infallible and omniscient such as "God", or at least our reasoning capabilities would have to wield absolute powers of knowing.

How can we absolutely know whether the absolute does or does not exist? To know absolutely, our 'knowing' abilities would have to be, at least in some sense - absolute. I would think?

@ The VOID. I would too think that perfection is an entirely subjective thing. But how can you absolutely know that it cannot exist absolutely? You can't know that without absolute reasoning capabilities yourself, right?

I believe I am right in thinking that you do not claim to absolutely know, that absolute perfection absolutely doesn't exist, but just to clarify.

And I would think that both me, PR, and yourself don't actually believe in absolute perfection, we are merely discussing the matter of possibility here, I would think? And I am open to the possibility. I would think that the three of us are? Probability, and whether there's evidence for it or not, is another matter, I would think?

EvF

[Purple Rabbit]

And I would think that both me, PR, and yourself don't actually believe in absolute perfection, we are merely discussing the matter of possibility here, I would think? And I am open to the possibility. I would think that the three of us are? Probability, and whether there's evidence for it or not, is another matter, I would think?

One sidenote on what I think since you are implicitly asking.

I tend to adhere a Kantian viewpoint that distinguishes between noumenon and phenomenon. I think that from the existence of the phenomenon it can be concluded that a source, the noumenon, is needed. So you could say that I believe in the absolute existence of the noumenon. But that's all, folks. No absolute human knowledge, absolute superior beings or absolute moral for me.