More Evidence...as if it were needed...that White Evangelicals

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Interestingly in the UK people who are religious are more likely to be on the left of politics. We have no religious right to speak of . Christian fundies are likely to be African and like Muslims, vote left.

I don;t think you will find a single MP who is against evolution.

[Lucanus]

In Italy there's no such thing as creationists in any political field, and I think that for once the catholic church did a good job saying that they have no authority to speak against science. It means they are not THAT dimwitted, since in 500 years they have learnt something.

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I note that in the opening we are told about white evngelicals and white mainstreams but blacks aren't divided between mainstream and evangelical so the figue is averaged presumably so the OP can shout look at the stoopid white people. Love to kn ow the figues for black evangelicals a or arnn't we allowed to know?

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Interestingly in the UK people who are religious are more likely to be on the left of politics. We have no religious right to speak of . Christian fundies are likely to be African and like Muslims, vote left.

I don;t think you will find a single MP who is against evolution.

Err, I wouldn't say that's true.

The Conservatives are much more 'religious' than either the centre or the left, at least currently. Sure, under New Labour you had the increasing domination of the Christian Socialist Movement headed up by people like Blair and Brown, but in all honesty, the NL movement was much more right wing than left.

Indeed, the expansion of policies on things such as faith schools were advocated first by centre-right MPs under NL and then supported (and currently expanded on) by Conservatives through policies such as free schools and academies which are often funded by faith NGOs. We certainly do have a religious right, but they're just as obvious as they are in America (where they're fronted by a entire party). New statesman (I know, nobody really reads it) did do a good article: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/201...or-reality

There have been controversies about MPs and evolution in the past, especially (again) on faith schools and the support by NL for the Reg Vardy backed Emmanuel college in the mid 2000's who taught creationism as a trump to evolution.

I have no doubt there are certainly MPs in the British parliament who reject evolution. I'm sure a lot of the Northern Ireland MPs would for example.

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Err, I wouldn't say that's true.

The Conservatives are much more 'religious' than either the centre or the left, at least currently. Sure, under New Labour you had the increasing domination of the Christian Socialist Movement headed up by people like Blair and Brown, but in all honesty, the NL movement was much more right wing than left.

How are the conservatives more religious? the fulcrum is where the median of the country is and it changes. NL were still to the left of the Conservative party.

Indeed, the expansion of policies on things such as faith schools were advocated first by centre-right MPs under NL and then supported (and currently expanded on) by Conservatives through policies such as free schools and academies which are often funded by faith NGOs. We certainly do have a religious right, but they're just as obvious as they are in America (where they're fronted by a entire party). New statesman (I know, nobody really reads it) did do a good article: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/201...or-reality

So I just read the article and it really just confirms my viewpoint.

Quote
Evidence from the British Social Attitudes survey suggests that the most religiously observant voters (Catholic and Evangelical alike) tend to be considerably to the left of the general population on economic issues, even while holding extremely conservative views on such issues on gay rights and premarital sex.

The article is trying very hard to try and demonstrate a religious right and fails. There seem to be some tiny fringe groups.

There appear to be 8 MPs who identify as evangelical christians and they are evenly split between Labour and Tory

Faith schools went through a massive expansion under Labour

There have been controversies about MPs and evolution in the past, especially (again) on faith schools and the support by NL for the Reg Vardy backed Emmanuel college in the mid 2000's who taught creationism as a trump to evolution.

Reg Vardy is a businessman and owns stagecoach. He is not and never has been an MP

I have no doubt there are certainly MPs in the British parliament who reject evolution. I'm sure a lot of the Northern Ireland MPs would for example.

NI is the most religious part of the UK and certainly the DUP is the party of choice for evangelicals it might be that they have members who do not beleive in Evolution. 2 of their MPS have campaigned for the rights of creationists not to be penalised by the education system for their views and there is widespread homophobia. If Northern Ireland was an independent state then you could legitimately say that there was a religious right UK as a whole -not a chance.


There is NO religious right of any appreciable size whatsoever. The issues that the religious right in the US campaign on are now non issues in the UK. Abortion, teaching creationism/Intelligent design even Gay marriage now that the Conservative party introduced it

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Err, I wouldn't say that's true.

The Conservatives are much more 'religious' than either the centre or the left, at least currently. Sure, under New Labour you had the increasing domination of the Christian Socialist Movement headed up by people like Blair and Brown, but in all honesty, the NL movement was much more right wing than left.

How are the conservatives more religious? the fulcrum is where the median of the country is and it changes. NL were still to the left of the Conservative party.

Err, no, they really weren't. You're free to disagree, but you'll be hard pushed to find anyone who thinks that NL were anything but centre-right Thatcherite relics.

And really, no specific party is 'religious' per se. But, as I elucidated, the centre-right of the Tories are very much still imbued with religious MPs who utilise religious rhetoric. And not all of them are Christian. Baroness Varsy anyone?

Just look up some individual MPs in the the Conservative's and you'll see. Cameron himself is very much an ardent supporter of an entrenched and established CofE, despite his recent attacks on opponents of gay marraige.

If you don't believe me, do the research, it's not hard. It'd be silly to think that there were no religionists in the Tory party :\.

Indeed, the expansion of policies on things such as faith schools were advocated first by centre-right MPs under NL and then supported (and currently expanded on) by Conservatives through policies such as free schools and academies which are often funded by faith NGOs. We certainly do have a religious right, but they're just not as obvious as they are in America (where they're fronted by a entire party). New statesman (I know, nobody really reads it) did do a good article: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/201...or-reality

So I just read the article and it really just confirms my viewpoint.

Quote
Evidence from the British Social Attitudes survey suggests that the most religiously observant voters (Catholic and Evangelical alike) tend to be considerably to the left of the general population on economic issues, even while holding extremely conservative views on such issues on gay rights and premarital sex.

The article is trying very hard to try and demonstrate a religious right and fails. There seem to be some tiny fringe groups.

There appear to be 8 MPs who identify as evangelical christians and they are evenly split between Labour and Tory

Faith schools went through a massive expansion under Labour

NEW labour.

New Labour were comprised of new centre-right Thatcherites that advocated quasi-privatization (more privatization under NL for the NHS than even Thatcher herself) of public sector bodies to such a degree that people appear to forget that Tory schemes such as PFI were expanded several times over anything that Major attempted.

The only reason Blair kept Brown on in the position of Chancellor was because he represented a Presbyterian link to old religious socialist labour. But he still towed the line when it came to matters of the new centre-right.

And since when did this just become about evangelism? In your original post you talked about 'religion' per se. Why have the goal posts moved in this post? you have people like Keith Vaz, supporter of the rushdie book burnings on the left, and Varsi, supporter of islamic rights protection and anti-secular on the right (former vice chairwoman of the party).

There have been controversies about MPs and evolution in the past, especially (again) on faith schools and the support by NL for the Reg Vardy backed Emmanuel college in the mid 2000's who taught creationism as a trump to evolution.

Reg Vardy is a businessman and owns stagecoach. He is not and never has been an MP

you're missing the point and being intentionally obtuse.

I never once claimed that he was an MP. I said he was supported by some MPs, and by the general consensus within the NL parliament that faith based education was a boon. Please dont misrepresent my point or I will report you.

I have no doubt there are certainly MPs in the British parliament who reject evolution. I'm sure a lot of the Northern Ireland MPs would for example.

NI is the most religious part of the UK and certainly the DUP is the party of choice for evangelicals it might be that they have members who do not beleive in Evolution. 2 of their MPS have campaigned for the rights of creationists not to be penalised by the education system for their views and there is widespread homophobia. If Northern Ireland was an independent state then you could legitimately say that there was a religious right UK as a whole -not a chance.


There is NO religious right of any appreciable size whatsoever. The issues that the religious right in the US campaign on are now non issues in the UK. Abortion, teaching creationism/Intelligent design even Gay marriage now that the Conservative party introduced it

Just because you don't count NI doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It does, and forms part of the UK legislature in Westminster, and religion imbued with their parties forms a large part of the general religionism in westminster.

And you're very, very wrong regarding the non-issues of the topics you highlight. Hell, even recently there was a concerted drive in both the commons and lords by some MPs (Nadine Dorris, On the right!) to reevaluate legislation on abortion time limits:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20079031
Supported in part by Jeremy Hunt, who happens to be health secretary.

Then you have folk like Liam Fox who is an ardent advocate for anti-abortion campaigns.

and to say gay marraige is a non-issue the same year there has been a bitter row in both parliament in the public about it is just astounding. So the general agreement by both parliament and the public is that gay marriage is good to go, legally speaking, but how can you possible arrive at the conclusion that for the many millions who disagreed with it is now currently a non-issue? We both agree that we think they're wrong, but still. You can't simply dismiss the inherent disagreements that still permeate several communities here in the UK. And the teaching of creationism...I just gave you evidence of where it IS an issue. there has been a constant battle in the debate over faith schools over how science is taught in relation to the specific religions. The faith based education sector saw massive and sustained growth both under the centre-right NL and the current Tory government:

Walford, G. (2008) 'Faith-based schools in England after 10 years of tony Blair', Oxford Review of Education, 34 (6), pp. 689-699
Williams, J.D. (2008) 'Creationist Teaching in School Science: A UK Perspective', Education and Outreach, 1 (1), pp. 87-95

There are many more articles that go into more detail, but this is all I cold dredge up from my research on short notice. Just recently there was an Islamic free school shut down by OFSTED after being accused of using harsh Rules to enforce strict sharia in Derby. A free school supported and originating from Gove's free school enterprise. Gove is anar dent supporter of faith schools and a practicing Presbyterian.

If you want to read up on it, here's a select few citations from my PhD that are informative about the Conservative religious renewal in recent times and the right-wing supporters of NL throughout the 90s and 00s (Note, not all are relevant as I don't have time to go through them individually, but there are some good articles to read):

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(Review) (1997) ‘The Single Regeneration Budget and the Issues of Local Flexibility’, Regional Studies, 31 (1), 78-81
Allmendinger, P. and Tewdwr-Jones, M (1997) ‘Post-Thatcherite Urban Planning and Politics: A Major Change?’, International Journal of Urban and Regional Research, 21 (1), 100-116
Archbishop of Cantebury’s Commission on Urban Priority Areas (1985) Faith in the City: A Call for Action by Church and Nation, London: Church House Publishing (http://www.cofe.anglican.org/info/papers...hecity.pdf [Last accessed 30/3/11])
Berger, P.L. (1967) The Sacred Canopy. Garden City, NY: Doubleday
Birmingham City Council (2003a.) 2001 Census Religious Group Profiles, http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/cs/Satellit...le+All.pdf [last accessed 30/3/11]
Birmingham City Council (2003b.) Birmingham and Solihull Economic Review 2003/4, http://www.birminghameconomy.org.uk/sum/ecrev03sum.htm [last accessed 28/3/11]
Birmingham City Council (2003.c) 2001 Census Economic Activity and Employment, http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/cs/Satellit...r+2006.pdf [last accessed 30/3/11]
Blair, T. (1996) New Britain: My Vision of a Young Country, London: Fourth Estate
Blaxter, L., Farnell, R. and Watts, J. (2003) ‘Difference, Ambiguity and the Potential for Learning – Local Communities working in Partnership with Local Government’, Community Development Journal, 38 (2), 130-139
Bogdanor, V. (ed.) (2005) Joined-up Government, Oxford: Oxford University Press
Bruce, S. (1995) ‘The Truth about Religion in Britain’, Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, 34 (4), 417-430
Bruce, S. (2001) ‘Christianity in Britain R.I.P.’, Sociology of Religion, 62 (2), 191-203
Bruce, S.( 2002) God is Dead: Secularization in the West. Oxford: Blackwell.
Chapman, R. and Lowndes, V. (2008) ‘Faith in Governance? The Potential Pitfalls of Involving Faith Groups in Urban Governance’, Planning Practice and Research, 23 (1), 57-75
Corrigan, P., Lipietz, A. and Hutton, W. (1997) ‘Towards Social Regeneration’, City: Analysis of urban trends, culture, theory, policy, action, 2 (7), 67-70
Cullingworth, J.B. and Nadin, V. (2003) Town and Country Planning in the UK, London: Routledge
Davie, G (1994) Religion in Britain since 1945, Oxford: Blackwell
Davie, G., Woodhead, L., and Heelas, P. (2003) Predicting Religion: Christian, Secular and Alternative Futures, Aldershot: Ashgate
Davies, J.S. (2004) ‘Conjuncture or Disjuncture? An Institutionalist Analysis of Local Regeneration Partnerships in the UK’, International Journal of Urban and Regional Research, 28 (3), 570-585
Dinham, A. (2008) ‘Commentary: From Faith in the City to Faithful Cities: The ‘Third Way’, the Church of England and Urban Regeneration’, Urban Studies, 45 (10), 2163-2174
Dinham, A. and Lowndes, V. (2008) ‘Religion, Resources, and Representation: Three narratives of faith engagement in British urban governance’, Urban Affairs Review, 43 (6), pp. 817–845
Dinham, A., Furbey, R. & Lowndes, V. (eds.) (2009) Faith in the Public Realm: Controversies, Policies and Practices, Bristol: Policy Press
DCLG (1998) Our Towns and Cities: The Future – Full Report, http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/...154869.pdf [last accessed 30/3/11]
DCLG (2002) Guidance on Enhancing Public Participation – Full Report, http://www.communities.gov.uk/publicatio...eenhancing [last accessed 30/3/11]
Farnell, R. (2001) ‘Faith Communities, Regeneration and Social Exclusion: Developing a Research Agenda’, Community Development Journal, 36 (4), 263-272
Farnell, R., Furbey, R., Shams Al-Haqq Hills, S., Macey, M. and Smith, G. (2003) ‘Faith’ in Urban Regeneration? Engaging Faith Communities in Urban Regeneration, London: Policy Press
Furbey, R. and Macey, M. (2005) ‘Religion and urban regeneration: A place for faith?’ Policy and Politics, 33 (1), pp. 95–116
Furbey, R., Dinham, A., Farnell, R., Finneron, D., Wilkinson, G., Howarth, C., Hussain, D. and Palmer, S. (2006) Faith as Social Capital: Connecting or Dividing?, Research published for the Joseph Rowntree Organisation, Bristol: Policy Press
Giddens, A. (1998) The Third Way: The Renewal of Social Democracy, Oxford: Blackwell
Gill, R., Hadaway, C.K. and Marler, P.L. (1998) ‘Is religious belief declining in Britain?’, Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, 37 (3), 211-226
Hastings, A. (1996) ‘Unravelling the Process of ‘Partnership’ in Urban Regeneration Policy’, Urban Studies, 33 (2), 253-268
Hills, J. and Waldfogel, J. (2004) ‘A “Third Way” in welfare reform? Evidence from the United Kingdom’, Journal of Policy Analysis and Management, 23 (4), 765-788
Home Office (2001) Community Cohesion: A Report of the Independent Review Team, http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Gu...report.pdf [last accessed 30/3/11]
Home Office (2004) Working Together: Co-operation between Government and Faith communities, http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/w...iew=Binary [Last Accessed 28/03/11]
Imrie, R. and Thomas, H. (1999) British Urban Policy: An Evaluation of the Urban Development Corporations, London: Sage
Imrie, R. and Raco, M. (eds.) (2003) Urban Renaissance? New Labour, Community and Urban Policy, Bristol: Policy Press
Jones, P.S. (2003) ‘Urban Regeneration’s Poisoned Chalice: Is There an Impasse in (Community) Participation-based Policy?’, Urban Studies, 40 (3), 581-601
LGA (2003) Partnerships for the common good: Interfaith structures and local government, http://www.interfaith.org.uk/publication...elines.pdf [last accessed 30/3/11]
Ling, T. (2002)’Delivering Joined up Government in the UK: Dimensions, Issues and Problems’, Public Administration, 80 (4), 615-642
Lowndes, V., Pratchett, L. and Stoker, G. (2001) ‘Trends in Local Public Participation: Part 1 – Local Government Perspectives’, Public Administration, 79 (1), 205-222
Lupton, R. and Fuller, C. (2009) ‘Mixed Communities: A New Approach to Spatially Concentrated Poverty in England’, International Journal of Urban and Regional Research, 33 (4), 1014-1028
Mathers, J., Parry, J. and Jones, S. (2008) ‘Exploring (non-) Participation in the UK New Deal for Communities Regeneration Programme’, Urban Studies, 45 (3), 591-606
Mawson, J and Hall, S. (2000) ‘Joining it up Locally? Area Regeneration and Holistic Government in England’, Regional Studies, 34 (1), 67-74
Mullender, R. (2000) ‘Theorising the Third Way: Qualified Consequentialism, the Proportionality Principle, and the New Social Democracy’, Journal of Law and Society, 27 (4), 493-516
New Economics Foundation and the Church Urban Fund (2001) Faiths, Hope and Participation: Celebrating Faith Groups’ role in Neighbourhood Renewal, http://www.faithandcohesion.org/index.ph...iew&gid=27 [last accessed 30/3/11]
Oc, T. and Tiesdell, S. (1999) ‘Supporting Minority Ethnic Business: A Review of Business Support for Ethnic Minorities in City Challenge Areas’, Urban Studies, 36 (10), 1723-1746
ODPM (2005) National Evaluation of Local Strategic Partnerships: Report on the 2004 Survey of all English LSP’s, http://www.communities.gov.uk/publicatio...lstrategic [last accessed 30/3/11]
ODPM (2006) Review of the Evidence Base on Faith Communities, http://www.communities.gov.uk/publicatio...ies/review [last accessed 30/3/11]
ONS (2003) Birmingham: 2001 Census, http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/...s/00cn.asp [last accessed 30/3/11]
ONS (2004) Religious Populations: 2001 Census, http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=954 [last accessed 30/3/11]
Pacione, M. (ed.) (1997) Britain’s Cities: Geographies of Division in Urban Britain, London: Routledge
Parekh, B. (2006) Rethinking Multiculturalism: Cultural Diversity and Political Theory, Basingstoke: Palgrave
Rozario, S. (2005) ‘Genetics, Religion and Identity among British Bangladeshis: Some Initial Findings’, Diversity in Health and Social Care, 2, 187-196
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SEU (2001) A New Commitment to Neighbourhood Renewal, http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov....-51090.pdf [last accessed 30/3/11]
Smith, G. (2002) ‘Religion, and the rise of Social Capitalism: The Faith Communities in Community Development and Urban Regeneration in England’, Community Development Journal, 37 (2), 167-177
Smith, G. (2010) ‘Faith in Local Government: The Emergence of Religion in the Politics of an Inner London Borough 1975-2006’, Politics and Religion, 2, 157-182
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Worley, C. (2005) ‘It’s not about race. It's about the community’: New Labour and ‘community cohesion’’, Critical Social Policy, 25 (4), 483-496

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Ill give way on the northern Ireland issues but to claim a few MPs trying to sway things one way or another amounts to a movement is nonsense.

So if new labour are 'centreright hen who exactly was the centre in British politics and who the left? The fact is that politics have shifted rightwards because people (myself included) who used to be of the left realised it was based on shit economics, hypocrites and people who just hated their own country. The left joining forces with islamists was the last straw for me.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Ill give way on the northern Ireland issues but to claim a few MPs trying to sway things one way or another amounts to a movement is nonsense.

So if new labour are 'centreright hen who exactly was the centre in British politics and who the left? The fact is that politics have shifted rightwards because people (myself included) who used to be of the left realised it was based on shit economics, hypocrites and people who just hated their own country. The left joining forces with islamists was the last straw for me.

I didn't say there was a movement, but there is certainly a large segment of the body politic that is still very religious and very conservative. Thankfully their power waxes and wanes (mostly the latter) as people become disenchanted from their views, but they do exist and they do have a large impact on legislation and lobbying. I don't think we should dismiss them too easily, especially when it comes to things like education reform. I researched and advised on SACRE in the West Midlands as part of a small research team:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_Ad..._Education

You wouldn't believe the number of extremists of all religions that came out, some of them somewhat prominent local and regional politically figures.

Well, from around 1992 to 2010 arguably there wasn't a 'left', at least not in the traditional sense of the word. New labour was the brain child of Blair, Campbell, etc in response to what you rightly say was the shift to the right in public opinion, but the issue for the left was that they were subsumed into it. Their only options were to move left more (which was a no no considering what happened to labour in the 1980s), or go along for the ride. That's why people like Brown towed the line, because there wasn't really a choice. They were popular in their constituencies (typically old labour heartlands like Yorkshire, Wales and Scotland etc), but the middle voters wouldn't have found them palatable had they tried to reveal their differences from the charasmatic Tony Blair.

There were certainly some good left MPs in labour which were worthy of their seat. I'm thinking like people such as. Gisela Stuart and Robin Cook (A great MP by anyone's standards, and sadly missed), but you're right, largely, the left has seen a massive exodus because, frankly, in there UK at least, they led the country to near ruin in the 70s and 80s. Their policies on integration and assimilation, especially over matters of religion were disastrous in many respects (Muslim council of Britain, central London mosque, the debacle in tower hamlets and Islamists using the labour candidate list to get extremists elected), but I try not to hold it against them because this is true of multiple governments of successive decades.

I apologize if I'm just elucidating on matters you are already versed in, which I guess you are. I don't believe there actually has to be a left and right for people to vote for, just so long as there's an illusion of choice. And that's what I think there is, especially because most people are idiots who don't realise they're being taken for a ride by the elite, who are distinctly mediocre IMHO.

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There is always a left and a right. The terms are relative. What is left in the USA is most certainly right in France or Sweden. Left and right is based around the fulcrum of the body politic. The terms originated ,as you probably know, in the Post revolutionary assembly in France where everyone would be considered right by today's standards so it is clearly relative. New Labour were the left as the fulcrum had moved strongly to the right.

However the most extreme religious group in the Uk is championed by the far left in the form of the Socialist workers party who will accept any homophobic, racist or misogynistic statements even segregating their own members to honour it.