Positive Atheism

[tackattack]

[quote='rjh4' pid='45023' dateline='1260407178']
[quote='Rhizomorph13' pid='44876' dateline='1260316603']
No you had it right, but my faith in God was shining and pure as a child... but as time wore on, I obtained new information that didn't jive with my beliefs. Rhizo

Why did you assume or conclude that the new information was correct and your beliefs were wrong?
[/quote]

Trial and error. Prayers weren't answered in any coherent pattern, following where the spirit led me resulted in a lot of tail chasing and wild goose following. One of the best reasons was that it was a struggle just to maintain a belief in something that doesn't make sense and delving into the bible just made things worse. It is just a really old form of wish fulfillment and ultimately doesn't add up.
[/quote]

At the time did you only study the bible? I find my prayers answered in a coherent pattern justifiable given enough time. I follow where my "holy spirit" leads me and I couldn't be in a happier or more content place with my accomplishments. Belief is a struglle to achieve, but not maintain IMO. I agree that it's difficult to make sense of a lot of things that aren't right in front of your face. How would you say it's an old form of wish fufillment?

[quote='fr0d0' pid='44783' dateline='1260263359']

The bible teaches that natural man will never be able to understand its truth on his own; for only the Spirit of God, who understands the mind of God, can reveal the truths of God, which are in direct opposition to the wisdom of the world (1 Cor. 2:10-16; cf. Acts 8:30-31). However, when the bible is read or heard, the Spirit works as he chooses, giving understanding and producing faith in many who hear (Jn. 3:4-12; 16:7-14; cf. Acts 16:14).

Therefore, it is of great benefit for anyone who so desires to study the bible, knowing that “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17), and that God gives his wisdom liberally to all men who ask him in faith (James 1:5-6); indeed, no one who hungers and thirsts for God's truth will be turned away, if he cries out to the Savior and applies himself to study the bible, for Jesus has invited us all with these words, “If anyone thirst, let him come unto me and drink” (John 7:37).

So if the "Spirit of God" guides Christians, why are there so many different types of Christianity?

If I may take a crack at this. I wouldn't say the "Spirit of God" guides, it "reveals truths". Nor is it just for Christians, because (I hate to sound cliche') but Jesus died for all mankind (infer womankind as well). Chrisitanity like all religions I can think of are man made constructs. They differ as much as our opinions on which shade of green is true green. Someone at crayola said this is lime-green this is teal, blue-green and this one yup it's green. Instead of one person naming their "color" of God, lots of people have views simply out of the fact that God is unknowable.

[fr0d0]

No you had it right, but my faith in God was shining and pure as a child... but as time wore on, I obtained new information that didn't jive with my beliefs. Rhizo

Why did you assume or conclude that the new information was correct and your beliefs were wrong?

Trial and error. Prayers weren't answered in any coherent pattern, following where the spirit led me resulted in a lot of tail chasing and wild goose following. One of the best reasons was that it was a struggle just to maintain a belief in something that doesn't make sense and delving into the bible just made things worse. It is just a really old form of wish fulfillment and ultimately doesn't add up.

Rhizo

---

I will never give up my search for the truth.

*fr0d0 and Rhiz walk away into the sunset holding hands* *sighs*

Christian sidehugs all round.

Oh how cute! Would you kiss Rhiz frOdO?

Let's build a replyomid!

My contribution

whoosh! Of course Amph

[rjh4 is back]

One of the best reasons was that it was a struggle just to maintain a belief in something that doesn't make sense and delving into the bible just made things worse.

Interesting...whenever I start having doubts and think that maybe I am wrong, I start thinking of the alternatives and easily come back to the conclusion that God exiting and the Bible is the Word of God is the only thing that really makes any sense of our existence. That is not to say that there are not questions that I cannot answer or that everything makes perfect sense. Many good questions have been asked here. But overall I think it leaves less questions unanswered.

How did delving into the Bible make things worse? What did you believe before?

[Eilonnwy]

One of the best reasons was that it was a struggle just to maintain a belief in something that doesn't make sense and delving into the bible just made things worse.

Interesting...whenever I start having doubts and think that maybe I am wrong, I start thinking of the alternatives and easily come back to the conclusion that God exiting and the Bible is the Word of God is the only thing that really makes any sense of our existence. That is not to say that there are not questions that I cannot answer or that everything makes perfect sense. Many good questions have been asked here. But overall I think it leaves less questions unanswered.

How did delving into the Bible make things worse? What did you believe before?

Which would be an argument from personal incredulity. Just because it "makes sense to you" doesn't make it true.

A lot of people seem to think they can just pick and choose which explanations they like and that makes it true. That has always baffled me. I try to accept what is demonstrably true, even if I have a hard time understanding it, and even if it is uncomfortable for me to accept it based on pre-suppositions.

Have you really done any research beyond questioning and then running back to the Bible to feel better? Have you looked for the answer elsewhere? I don't say this to be mocking, I just hear theists say things similar to what you have which amounts to "I questioned, so instead of looking for independent answers and weighing the evidence of the answers to come to a conclusion, I found some passage in the book or someone else who has rationalized it, liked what I heard, and happily doubts where quelled." That's not an honest inquiry, even if to the person who asked feels it is.

And as for the Bible making it worse, if you read it honestly you can see the contradictions, atrocities, absurdities that run rampant through the book. You read my post on the Gospels, right?

[tackattack]

One of the best reasons was that it was a struggle just to maintain a belief in something that doesn't make sense and delving into the bible just made things worse.

Interesting...whenever I start having doubts and think that maybe I am wrong, I start thinking of the alternatives and easily come back to the conclusion that God exiting and the Bible is the Word of God is the only thing that really makes any sense of our existence. That is not to say that there are not questions that I cannot answer or that everything makes perfect sense. Many good questions have been asked here. But overall I think it leaves less questions unanswered.

How did delving into the Bible make things worse? What did you believe before?

Which would be an argument from personal incredulity. Just because it "makes sense to you" doesn't make it true.

A lot of people seem to think they can just pick and choose which explanations they like and that makes it true. That has always baffled me. I try to accept what is demonstrably true, even if I have a hard time understanding it, and even if it is uncomfortable for me to accept it based on pre-suppositions.

Have you really done any research beyond questioning and then running back to the Bible to feel better? Have you looked for the answer elsewhere? I don't say this to be mocking, I just hear theists say things similar to what you have which amounts to "I questioned, so instead of looking for independent answers and weighing the evidence of the answers to come to a conclusion, I found some passage in the book or someone else who has rationalized it, liked what I heard, and happily doubts where quelled." That's not an honest inquiry, even if to the person who asked feels it is.

And as for the Bible making it worse, if you read it honestly you can see the contradictions, atrocities, absurdities that run rampant through the book. You read my post on the Gospels, right?

The bible is filled with tons of contradictions.. I can see how it can make it worse. I try to go to other religions. I talk to non-theists but they're rarely in a talkative mood. I consult secular book. I don't listen to anything Oprah says. I try to get different angles and "test the waters". I try and look at it as objectively as I can. Maybe if religious types weren't so judgemental and atheist were willing to be more open (specifically in my area you guys are great) we could all hang out in a coffe shop and discuss and share. I'd bring the parcheeze

[theVOID]

I don't listen to anything Oprah says.

Hallelujah!

Oprah is quite a faith whore.

[Eilonnwy]

I recently glanced at my spam folder and found a disturbing amount of Oprah spam. When I mentioned Oprah on twitter I suddenly had their fan club follow me, and got friended on myspace. It was weird. It's like she's slowly taking over the world via obsessed fans.

I'm frightened.

[tackattack]

uh oh you have Ostalkers.. you should get that checked out before they start leeching. I wonder if we could get enough people together to get a restraining ordder put against the O-rganiztion?

[rjh4 is back]

Which would be an argument from personal incredulity. Just because it "makes sense to you" doesn't make it true.

E...my statement was not intended to be some logical proof of what I believe so while I understand your point, I think it is misplaced here. And while I agree with you that just because it makes sense to me doesn't necessarily make it true, likewise I also think that just because scientists can carry out an experiment that convinces you that something like abiogenesis is possible doesn't mean that abiogenesis is necessarily true (i.e., that that is what actually happened in the past).

A lot of people seem to think they can just pick and choose which explanations they like and that makes it true. That has always baffled me. I try to accept what is demonstrably true, even if I have a hard time understanding it, and even if it is uncomfortable for me to accept it based on pre-suppositions.

You seemed to have made a leap here. I said something made sense to me. You seem to have taken this as saying that I came to my conclusion because I "like" the explanation. There is quite a difference.

Going back to what I actually said, does that baffle you? Don't you draw your conclusion based on what makes sense to you?

Have you really done any research beyond questioning and then running back to the Bible to feel better? Have you looked for the answer elsewhere? I don't say this to be mocking, I just hear theists say things similar to what you have which amounts to "I questioned, so instead of looking for independent answers and weighing the evidence of the answers to come to a conclusion, I found some passage in the book or someone else who has rationalized it, liked what I heard, and happily doubts where quelled." That's not an honest inquiry, even if to the person who asked feels it is.

Yes I have...but you would have to take my word on that as I doubt I could demonstrate it to you .

And as for the Bible making it worse, if you read it honestly you can see the contradictions, atrocities, absurdities that run rampant through the book.

Sounds quite similar to the True Scotsman Fallacy. If you read the Bible you can see.... I have read the Bible and I don't see.... Clearly you have not "honestly" read the Bible....

Maybe it is just that I have a different perspective on things than you and that perspective affects what I get out of the Bible compared to what you get out of it.

You read my post on the Gospels, right?

I did. And I concluded that you have chosen to believe what some scholars conclude about the Bible and I have chosen to believe what other scholars conclude about the Bible. There is so much out there written on both sides of things and I think some good points made on both sides. One could research forever and still end up at that same point...a lot written and supported on both sides. I continue to believe in God and the Bible because after reading much of the for and against and having lived as both a non-Christian and a Christian, the for (Christianity) makes more sense to me even if I do not understand everything about God and the Bible and cannot answer all good questions about it.

[Rhizomorph13]

This whole discussion amuses me to no end (Theism vs. Atheism). I have met people with no more depth than a mud puddle that side on either side and I've met deep thinkers who side on either side. The difference seems to be simply the size of their arguments.

The shallow:

Theist: I loves Jesus and know in my heart that he is real.

Atheist: Boo god I hate rules (No really, I've heard this argument for atheism)

The deep:

Theist: <insert some wordy definition of God being trancendental or maybe something involving quarks or quantum theory about causality>

Atheist: <insert some wordy definition of the universe being a multi-verse or maybe something involving quarks or quantum theory about causality>

It all seems to boil down to simple gut reactions to the idea of God.

This is why I love the AF!
Rhizo