Abortions

[Meatball]

The man should be involved, but shouldn't have any bearing on the final decision. The Canadian Supreme Court said it best:

"[f]orcing a woman, by threat of criminal sanction, to carry a foetus to term unless she meets certain criteria unrelated to her own priorities and aspirations asserts that the woman's capacity to reproduce is to be subject, not to her own control, but to that of the state"

It's actually a really great quote. One of those that makes me proud to be Canadian.

[leo-rcc]

Sea, you make it sound like abortion is nothing more than removing genital warts. And I find that a very ignorant position to hold.

'Rights' are completely subjective... as are morals... as is pretty much everything (if not everything?).

Yet we determine these rights. Equal rights are a standard in our societies. This is not Saudi-Arabia, so don't invoke that into it. This is not a religious issue either. Stop trying to add if's and's and but's in this scenario, it is already established what I am talking about. If you cannot address this point on the scenario presented then either bow out of the discussion or reconsider your position.

By 'worthy', I am referring to a man who has been in a relationship with the woman for enough time to make him more 'worthy' of having a claim to a child more than a male rapist. Did I say anywhere that either of them 'did wrong'?

You didn't, I did, from the very beginning, and I said both are. They both made a mistake and had an unwanted pregnancy as a result.

I understand the gist of what you were saying with the paragraph, but I should also think that I got my limbs from my father's materials as well as my mother's

No you got your first cell from the material of your father and mother, you do not grow your limbs from either, you grow them yourself from the cell division from that first stem cell in the womb of your mother.

are we aware of at what point the 'baby' goes from simply sensing... to doing something of its own 'will?' with what it senses?

Babies that are out of the womb don't even have a will yet, there brain is just functioning enough to perceive and communicate pain, hunger, sleep. Are you now saying that we should be able to kill them too?

A chicken is as capable of feeling pain as I am... yet I eat chicken. What is so different about aborting a growth in my uterus that can feel pain? Pain happens... it is not a good reason to stop an abortion simply because it will hurt someone/something.

I think you miss the point here. I am not opposed to abortion (read back every posting I made and you will see that at no point I have said I was), but I am opposed to abortion without at least looking for a solution to keep a baby if there is sufficient cause to assume this child will grow up in a loving environment, either with the father or adoption. If there is no way that that is going to happen, then terminating the pregnancy is the best thing to do.

I am not opposed to abortion when the situation is such that having the child is so much of a burden on the parents that it lessens the quality of life for the child. I am not opposed to abortion if there is a medical ground for it.

I see abortion as a last resort. And I think it is only fair that the father should be included in this. And I tentatively agree that unless we can do some kind of in vitro gestation the mother has the last word. But it is in no means as cut and dry as the first posts in this topic made it out to be.

[Eilonnwy]

Saerules, the problem with your arguments, and this is the problem we had when we argued this issue before, is you look at as purely scientific or purely logical. You view the baby as a parasite, easily discarded. No better than an ovarian cyst I had surgery to remove over almost two years ago.

The problem is, I had no attachment to that cyst, but people do have attachment to unborn children because it represents a person, baring abortion or natural miscarriage that will be born and become that person's child. The matter is extremely emotional, and cold rationale does not dictate what a woman does completely.

So the father most certainly has the right to express his emotion about the matter. As stated previously, I don't think he can make the final determination, but I think if the father wants to talk to mother and try to work something out, then that should happen. I think whatever the woman decides should be shared with the man, for better or worse unless he's a rapist or expresses no interest.

You're bringing up extremes which don't have relevance to what we are talking about here. Yes, in Islam when woman are raped it's considered there fault. There's a lot of shit that women suffer over there, rape is only one aspect of many. There's more that needs to change for women there besides rape laws. I think you're moving the goal post when you start talking about a completely different lifes circumstance while Leo and I are referring to the average woman in the United States where our vote on the matter counts.

They are two different discussions entirely.

[Meatball]

I think from a legal standpoint, laws need to be based on arguments that are logical or scientific. It's an emotional topic, yes, but the law needs to draw a line, that's why it's there.

When you start mixing emotion and laws, things get crazy. Like the abortion debate.

[binny]

So the father most certainly has the right to express his emotion about the matter. As stated previously, I don't think he can make the final determination, but I think if the father wants to talk to mother and try to work something out, then that should happen. I think whatever the woman decides should be shared with the man, for better or worse unless he's a rapist or expresses no interest.

Yes I was trying to say this, but I'm not that articulate
But what father has more rights, the one 'night stand' father, the 'casual affair' father, the 'in a committed relationship' father? Every situation is different.
At my age if my husband knocked me up I would go running to the abortion clinic. No matter what his position is. I can't imagine being 64 years old sitting at my child's high school graduation ceremony. Ain't gonna happen, but if I never had children then I might have a different point of view. Who knows. Thank god I'll never find out

[Eilonnwy]

Yeah, it's not so clear cut. It's always going to be a case by case basis.

And I FYI, I know Leo does not live in the US, but the point is still the same in my above post. I noticed my blunder on the way to the gym. XD

[Amphora]

I believe if a couple has a child accidentally unplanned sex no condom rape.The couple should talk it over, the guy should not be excluded from making the decision, but if the girl sees fair reason to have an abortion she should be able to, if the guy is opposed to this he should tell the girl as soon as possible!

What happens more often the not with girls getting pregnant, the guy leaves and has sex with another girl.

Lets take this: a couple has sex and the girl gets pregnant, the guy really want her to have this baby (wants to sound very convincing to the girl) so the girl agrees, has the baby in HER belly for 9 months. At the end of the pregnancy the guys is not heard from, and cannot be found. She of course has the baby in hoping the guy would show up, by some miracle but he doesn’t. So then the girl is left with this baby and no one to help her to take care of it but her, but possibly her parents could help her out?

Who do you think is the victim here? Should the girl have not had the baby? Should the guy have been true to her in the beginning?

[littlegrimlin1]

If he thought of leaving in advance, then he shouldn't have told her he wanted it... make it, then wait until the very end to leave. He shouldv'e at least told her 3-4 months before the birth in advance that he didn't want it then. They couldv'e aborted and be done with it.

"Who do you think is the victim here? Should the girl have not had the baby? Should the guy have been true to her in the beginning? "

1) If he came back for good, neither would be victim, but without him, both are victims. She will suffer a hard parenthood and he will have to pay.

2) She should not have had it only if she knew this would happen, otherwise, I don't think she could know what do decide.

3) Of course, the guy should be true all of the time. If he knew in the beginning, then tell her. If he didn't know until the end, then that sucks for him/them.

[Eilonnwy]

I think from a legal standpoint, laws need to be based on arguments that are logical or scientific. It's an emotional topic, yes, but the law needs to draw a line, that's why it's there.

When you start mixing emotion and laws, things get crazy. Like the abortion debate.

I think the law, as it stands, is good. It allows woman to have an abortion within a reasonable amount of time, and should the pregnancy be life threatening, or the child too deformed to survive, late term abortions are performed. So yes, the legal standpoint should not be based on emotion.

However, the process of getting an abortion is an emotional one. Hence I argue, abortions should be legal but contraceptives and prevention of unwanted pregnancies should be the focus in helping woman, especially underprivileged woman. The abortion debate is multi-faceted and yes, it has an emotional component. You can't escape that.

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If he thought of leaving in advance, then he shouldn't have told her he wanted it... make it, then wait until the very end to leave. He shouldv'e at least told her 3-4 months before the birth in advance that he didn't want it then. They couldv'e aborted and be done with it.

People make decisions all the time that they regret. The man could have been sincere but the when the moment came, he ran.

It would be nice if people acted rational and logical all the time, clearly thought out their actions and the consequences for them. Of course if a couple fucks up (and I mean literally) they have a track record of not being the "thinking ahead type."

Another way to look at, I was in a car accident this summer on my bike. Woman opened a door without looking, I clipped it and crashed. Got nasty cuts and bruises, brakes jammed. The woman asked me if I wanted help, but I refused. I was so shaken up and distraught I told her to leave. People came to me and told me I should call the police. I refused. My natural reaction was for everyone to leave me alone so I could lick my wounds in peace. Later on as I waited for my mother to pick me up, I realized that I should have taken the woman's information and had her pay to fix my bike. Not only that, if I needed to go to the hospital, she should be responsible for that. I didn't think. I acted in the moment, the logic didn't come till later.

This is what I mean when I say that the decision for abortion is emotional. While my example isn't perfectly related to what it's like to have an unwanted pregnancy, the point remains. Woman aren't going to be thinking 100% clearly about their options, they're vulnerable. The fathers could be the same exact way. If rational heads prevailed, then couples would discuss the problem and come to an agreement. But that's not life, unfortunately.

[littlegrimlin1]

ah yes, emotion does tend to overwhelm logic most of the time. I must stay apathetic on many things in order to let logic run its optimal course.

The laws should let people (women) have abortions at will, and let the people decide on thier own.