Ok I admit it

[Simon Moon]

If I prayed for a new Ferrari to arrive tomorrow, would the appearance and non appearance of a Ferrari both be an answer to prayer? I think they would.

I wasn't talking about a sample size of one. I was talking about statistically significant observations among the entire praying Christian population.

If Christians overwhelmingly prayed for the health of their family and friends, and there was a statistically significant observable improvement in health of Christians over the non-Christian population, that would be impressive.

But I'm sure you're going to tell me that is not how prayer is supposed to be used. 'God' dodges another one...

[fr0d0]

If it was Gods will that Christian families have greater health than non Christian families, then that would be the case. Your problem lies not with the statistics, but with knowing Gods will.

The problem with scientific tests of prayer is that they're testing for an unknowable result.

[Simon Moon]

If it was Gods will that Christian families have greater health than non Christian families, then that would be the case. Your problem lies not with the statistics, but with knowing Gods will.

The problem with scientific tests of prayer is that they're testing for an unknowable result.

I don't have a problem.

Nonexistent beings don't usually have the time in their busy schedule of not existing, to have a will.

So tell me, just how does your god manifest in reality? Give me some examples and I'll come up with scientifically viable tests to test for effects from his manifestations.

[pocaracas]

If you pray according to God's will, it gets done.
If you don't pray, God's will gets done.
If you pray against God's will, it doesn't get done.
If you don't pray, what god doesn't will, doesn't get done.

Did I miss an option, Frodo?

[Wyrd of Gawd]

If you pray according to God's will, it gets done.
If you don't pray, God's will gets done.
If you pray against God's will, it doesn't get done.
If you don't pray, what god doesn't will, doesn't get done.

Did I miss an option, Frodo?

People believe in God's will until something bad happens to them. For instance, a guy is walking down the street and someone robs him. He gets angry and vengeful. But the robber was praying that God would send a guy his way with a wallet full of money so that he could get it to feed his hungry kids.

[fr0d0]

If it was Gods will that Christian families have greater health than non Christian families, then that would be the case. Your problem lies not with the statistics, but with knowing Gods will.

The problem with scientific tests of prayer is that they're testing for an unknowable result.

I don't have a problem.

Nonexistent beings don't usually have the time in their busy schedule of not existing, to have a will.

So tell me, just how does your god manifest in reality? Give me some examples and I'll come up with scientifically viable tests to test for effects from his manifestations.

You have no problem with prayer. Great.

You are a manifestation of God. Do you exist?

---

If you pray according to God's will, it gets done.
If you don't pray, God's will gets done.
If you pray against God's will, it doesn't get done.
If you don't pray, what god doesn't will, doesn't get done.

Did I miss an option, Frodo?

No that's all perfectly correct.
Of course the answers could be different. Not praying can't change Gods will, where praying can. You will always know Gods will by what happens.

---

People believe in God's will until something bad happens to them. For instance, a guy is walking down the street and someone robs him. He gets angry and vengeful. But the robber was praying that God would send a guy his way with a wallet full of money so that he could get it to feed his hungry kids.

The sun shines on the righteous and the unrighteous.

If your belief was so shallow that you you only believed when things were going your own way, your belief wouldn't be worth anything.

[Esquilax]

So Frodo, serious question: you say we can't have physical proof for metaphysical claims. Fine, let's accept that as true for now: how does one detect the metaphysical at all, in order to be justified in making the claim that it's there, in that case?

What methodology do you propose for coming to the conclusion of a metaphysical cause for anything?

[fr0d0]

You use your brains esq. Logic and reason.

Your first paragraph paraphrased: so we can't have physical evidence of anything metaphysical. So how do we detect the metaphysical physically?

I can see why you're failing here

[Esquilax]

You use your brains esq. Logic and reason.

You can't think a thing into existence.

Your first paragraph paraphrased: so we can't have physical evidence of anything metaphysical. So how do we detect the metaphysical physically?

I can see why you're failing here

Oh no, I meant detect it at all. Obviously you must have some way to do that: rather than just making vague handwaves toward logic and reason, why not actually provide some details with that tap dance?

[fr0d0]

1. No. But you can work out if it exists.

I don't know that Australia exists. I could prove it physically, but I haven't. I trust information from various sources that it does. That is enough for me to believe. All of us make this leap on information received.

2. Detect it at all physically?