Not taking any more BS.

[Jason Jarred]

So basically you feel you can not trust the witness. That is your choice. But it is still evidence for God. As for the mass visions they were clearly deluded, but that fact can not be used to say every body who has a religious experience is deluded; that is just not logically correct.

Because some people are deluded, means all people are deluded.

That statement does not stand up to scrutiny.

You read the bible yet - since last time I asked?

[FutureAndAHope]

You read the bible yet - since last time I asked?

yes

Have you read my evidence yet?

[Jason Jarred]

You read the bible yet - since last time I asked?

yes

Have you read my evidence yet?

lolcat... well, I'm going to get around to it, I promise

OK, I deserved that

[leo-rcc]

My Evidence
=========
Witness One
=========
One morning I woke up and I heard a voice say to me "How would you like to be stabbed and attacked in the valley"? The valley was the tough end of town, and I was a little afraid as I was going to be visiting the valley that day. Despite being a little afraid by the voice, thinking maybe I had done something wrong andd was going to be stabbed. I went down to the valley (after work I think it was), and I went up to a man and asked him out to church, he said "No I am an athiest". I said "fine", and just kept the conversation going. Soon after he said to me "This is why I don't believe in God", he opened up his shirt and showed me stab wounds, where he had been attacked with a knife in the valley some years before. I knew then that I was asked how would I like to be stabbed so I could sympathise with him. Latter of the way home (I took him home to his house) I bought up the story of what I had been told, he became very open to talking about God. SOme weeks latter he came out to church and became a christian.

Very touching, but being stabbed and surviving it happens all the time, it has absolutely no bearing on whether or not a god or gods exist. Classic case of "Shit happens". I don't wish this on anyone, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, or volcano worshiper. Bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people, no belief in the world will change that.

Witness 2
=======
One day I was on my computer and was told Steve Erwin would die. Steve Erwin was a very famous person in our country. I was told to contact him and share the gospel with him. I was not certain of the voice, so I did not act (partly due to the fear). However some months latter steve Erwin was attacked by a sting ray and died as a result, the voice turned out to be telling the truth.

Odds of a guy like Steve Irwin dying by an animal are already stacked hugely in favor of it, I was 99% certain it would happen at some time. Even months before he died. That it was a Stingray that did it was a surprise to me I admit. Still that is no evidence one way or another.

Witness 3
=======
I was praying asking God to reveal to me cures for common diseases; because my mind was on scientific topics I wondered would it not be cool to be able to recreate a dinosour. So I prayed and asked if I could create one. The Word "bood" entered my mind, I had no idea what the word ment so I looked it up on the Internet and I found it was a word used by a tribal group in asia to gently and with knidness say no. So I knew God was saying no.

Wow, you know a straightforward NO would have been a heck of a lot easier don't you think? Again, it proves nothing.

Witness 4
=======
One day I saw to mormons walking into our neibour hood, I knew ther faith was not a real sort, that it was based upon error.

Ah, No true Scotsman.

I went up to them and confronted them and told them how in that neibour hood I had prayed for and healed a woman of a back complaint and they should listen to me. One was german, so I thought would it not be cool to speak in toungues to them. So I tried but it did not work. So I just kept saying ASK God to show you the trusth, pray and ask. Latter that night I was lying in bed and thought "what a goose I just made of my self" Then I heard the word "bitten" being spoken to me and I felt a hand touch me and say I love you. The voice said "tell them bitten". I was afraid so did not do it, I thought what does that mean it sounds like being bitten by a dog. Some time, probably a year a least I looked it up in a german dictionary I came accross, bitten meant to ask, plead, emplore, or pray. So I knew God was just wanting to back up what I had said about "Ask", Ask God. I emplore you reading this too to ask God to reveal him self to you in a real way.

I happen to speak German.

Bitte (without the N, Bitten is just plural) also means, your welcome, its all right, Suit yourself, pardon?, and petition. Any american movie were a person or group speaks German that word is bound to show up, it could be remembered subconsciously and when someone plays the conversation to the German back in their minds, German words heard before can pop back in their minds. It is just as plausible if not more plausible than your explanation. Again just like all the other "evidence" it is al very circumstantial and proves nothing. It requires a mindset prone to faith to even consider such a thing as evidence.

a priest went on television before the democratic convention and said "It would be terrific if we prayed for rain so this convention will be a bust". Nothing happened. A week later the republikan convention was held and the first day was cancelled because a hurricane hit the country. Does that prove that god loves Democrats? Of course not.

[Ace Otana]

So basically you feel you can not trust the witness. That is your choice. But it is still evidence for God. As for the mass visions they were clearly deluded, but that fact can not be used to say every body who has a religious experience is deluded; that is just not logically correct.

Because some people are deluded, means all people are deluded.

That statement does not stand up to scrutiny.

So IF what your saying is true then if I said the flying spaghetti monster talked to me and I saw him, that too would have to be counted as evidence for the existance of the FSM.

That means anything in children books can be counted as evidence and every story can be as well. This is not evidence, this is the complete opposite to science and logic.

So NO! Personal experiance cannot be held as evidence for god unless your willing to accept that the toothfairy can exist due to evidence of dreaming.

Personal experiance is not science, it's not logical and it holds no ground.

Next.

[Edwardo Piet]

Maybe this thread should be called 'the battle between evidence and faith'.
So far its a 9-0 100% score to evidence, looking good to us evidence supporters
I don't mean battle as in violent of course, so what would be a more appropriate word? I was going to use 'war' but thats even worse probably.

[Jason Jarred]

Maybe this thread should be called 'the battle between evidence and faith'.
So far its a 9-0 100% score to evidence, looking good to us evidence supporters
I don't mean battle as in violent of course, so what would be a more appropriate word? I was going to use 'war' but thats even worse probably.

How about the 'gentle yet thoughtful and mutually sensitive exchange of dialogue, thoughts and ideas between evidence and faith' ? :p

[Spashie]

*Ahem*
May I very inpolitely join in?
I bloody hate it when people say that just because they deluded their god is the right one.

I'm of chinese descent, and before I was a humanist, I was a buddhist. Well, sort of. I just believed in buddha, but I wasnt full-on, monkish sort.
But before that, I was a Christian.
I remember it clearly.
4 years ago.
9 years old.
In China, somewhere around Beijing.
Me and my family went to a temple, just to see some pretty statues.
I got a little lost, and happened to prance into this place with a big buddha statue.
I was really scared. I knew a bit of chinese. I asked a few people if they had seen my family, but they didn't know. So I sat, there looking glum.
I heard this laughing noise.
Haw. Haw haw haw.
I looked up, and a saw the big buddha statue. It sounded like the noise was coming from the statue. Everyone else ignored it. although one little girl was gaping in awe with me.
It said this in a deep, crisp voice. (In chinese, but I'll translate)
"You want family?" I was befuddled. I nodded my head slowly. "Family over there."
His hand moved. I think his hand moved. It pointed to the direction of where my mum and dad were seated, wondering just where the heck i ran off to.
I yelled out "Thanks!"
Everyone thought I was a weirdo.
I looked back, the statue was in its original stance.
I eventually walked to me family, red faced and decided not to talk about it.
Back in Australia at school, my school Christian teacher said it was the devil trying to trick me.
Thats when I stopped believing in Christ, and started following buddhism.
I eventually dropped the whole organised religion thing and shook off the encounter at the temple.
I think our mind is rather creative. Plus, I had this sort of feeling in my gut that my family would be there.
But meh.

Mostly, I just live my life to the fullest.
I don't think my hallucination at the temple is "evidence".
And I highly doubt YOUR delusions about God and Christ is evidence either.
Evidence gets my vote.
No faith for me.
Organised religion is a waste of time.
o_o"'

[FutureAndAHope]

So IF what your saying is true then if I said the flying spaghetti monster talked to me and I saw him, that too would have to be counted as evidence for the existance of the FSM.

That means anything in children books can be counted as evidence and every story can be as well. This is not evidence, this is the complete opposite to science and logic.

So NO! Personal experiance cannot be held as evidence for god unless your willing to accept that the toothfairy can exist due to evidence of dreaming.

Personal experiance is not science, it's not logical and it holds no ground.

Personal experience is used as evidence all the time in court cases, because it is reasonable to do so. It is both reasonable and logical.

[Edwardo Piet]

So IF what your saying is true then if I said the flying spaghetti monster talked to me and I saw him, that too would have to be counted as evidence for the existance of the FSM.

That means anything in children books can be counted as evidence and every story can be as well. This is not evidence, this is the complete opposite to science and logic.

So NO! Personal experiance cannot be held as evidence for god unless your willing to accept that the toothfairy can exist due to evidence of dreaming.

Personal experiance is not science, it's not logical and it holds no ground.

Personal experience is used as evidence all the time in court cases, because it is reasonable to do so. It is both reasonable and logical.

Yeah, but their experiences are far far more likely to be really happening.
How do you recommend people tell the difference between real experience and what's just imagination/hallucination? If people experience other imaginary things and think they're real, do you just think in that case it isn't really real because it isn't what you believe? And it isn't the God you believe in? You just take the bible's word for it that if you imagine stuff related to that, then it must be real. But if its related to any other kinds of the supernatural and/or other Gods, or paranormal things etc, you assume its nonsense?
If not how DO you recommend people tell the difference between real experience and what's just imagination/hallucination? I'd like to understand.