Whether if I have to repeat myself or not I'm going to keep asking christian fundamentalists/other religious fundamentalists to provide evidence for their claims.
Since they seem to keep making the same claims, I'm going to keep asking for evidence. Because in my opinion, I now have decided if they're not going to try and provide any evidence, then there's no point me going into detail trying to explain things to them...because I seem to always get the same BS type of reply. If decided that if they choose to refuse to need evidence, and to play the 'faith card', we're just not going to agree untill they understand that evidence is important.
And it just seems almost impossible to explain why evidence is important if they don't need it. Also, often they think the bible is evidence of God, and just the fact it says its true, is NOT evidence...they're going to have to do better than that. And personal experience is NOT evidence. The evidence has to be demonstrated, and it has to be evidence that can be scientifically tested by the scientific method.
These fundies just don't have any idea what evidence is. Or they refuse to see how important it is. And if they understood evidence and considered it important, and treated it as important. They wouldn't be fundies would they? Thats what fundies are, those who don't need evidence. Those who think they KNOW they are right, that they can't be wrong. They have faith and they don't think they need evidence/they don't understand it.
So basically, fundies, "show me da evidence."
And even if you're not a fundie, and you're a religious moderate, we can atleast have a more reasonable conversation...but still, please "show me da evidence" anyway.
Believe it or not, but you moderates/deists still need to show me evidence if we're going to converse further atleast.
For evidence, not faith.

My christian response:


Interesting rant ;o) The standard reply you'll get from any christian will simply not address any of your points - use the word 'faith' about 5 times, with an injected dose of circular logic. Honestly I don't know why *any* of you guys or gals even bother trying to have a serious conversation with these people, it's the reason I mess around most of the time. If I didn't, I believe the idiocy and pure stupidity of what they say would drive me insane.
Possibly I would mess around less if even one of them answered my simple question "Have you read the bible". If they can't even answer this simple question of mine, what point to try to engage them in a complex and philosophical dialogue on their religious belief systems? The general trend appears to be towards evasiveness and preaching.

Let me know if *I* ever go overboard with my deliberate stupidities

(October 28, 2008 at 10:37 pm)Jason Jarred Wrote: Honestly I don't know why *any* of you guys or gals even bother trying to have a serious conversation with these people

I agree, I could do it for a while, but I'm new to foruming and debating about religion and science like this, so I realise, while fun for a bit, I've realized now that I can as a general rule only have a serious conversation with religious people if they are not fundamentalists, in other words if they are moderate and reasonable theists, or deists. That pretty much sums up the religious who I can have a good convo with.
All the rest though, basically all the fundies/dogmatists/creationists/absolutists I have to basically asking for evidence and feeling its +1 to me every time I'm ignored/dismissed. And if they answer and don't provide evidence of any real kind. Then I've got somewhere because I've further revealed their ignorance. And they should take notice of this. If they don't. What more can I do really?

Ahhh I understand where you're coming from in that case. I've personally been 'foruming' for many years, and have been involved in my fair share of online debates. That being said - I have *never* experienced such extreme idiocy as those times attempting to converse with the religous type. It seems all reason, rules and logic flies out the window. I've had private IM style conversations with some religious folks, only to find it a most frustrating encounter as they end up not being able to satisfactorily explain their beliefs. In the majority of cases, it seems to stem from the fact that they don't really understand their own beliefs and have never questioned them.

In relation to fundamentalists, I think I respect them more than the average christian because they seem less 'wishy washy' with their beliefs. Like the Westborough Baptist Church. They might be the looniest loons I have ever laid eyes on, they may be twisted, demented, sick, mislead, and straight out wrong - but I *respect* the fact that at the very least they don't attempt to twist the words of the bible to fit their own beliefs.
Well... maybe they do, but not as much as the average christian. You just have to respect somebody who stands by their beliefs through thick and thin, regardless of how demented or screwed up those beliefs may be. Either that, or pity them for being too stubborn and blind to percieve how badly their beliefs deviate from reality.

(October 28, 2008 at 11:41 pm)Jason Jarred Wrote: Ahhh I understand where you're coming from in that case. I've personally been 'foruming' for many years, and have been involved in my fair share of online debates. That being said - I have *never* experienced such extreme idiocy as those times attempting to converse with the religous type. It seems all reason, rules and logic flies out the window. I've had private IM style conversations with some religious folks, only to find it a most frustrating encounter as they end up not being able to satisfactorily explain their beliefs. In the majority of cases, it seems to stem from the fact that they don't really understand their own beliefs and have never questioned them.

In relation to fundamentalists, I think I respect them more than the average christian because they seem less 'wishy washy' with their beliefs. Like the Westborough Baptist Church. They might be the looniest loons I have ever laid eyes on, they may be twisted, demented, sick, mislead, and straight out wrong - but I *respect* the fact that at the very least they don't attempt to twist the words of the bible to fit their own beliefs.
Well... maybe they do, but not as much as the average christian. You just have to respect somebody who stands by their beliefs through thick and thin, regardless of how demented or screwed up those beliefs may be. Either that, or pity them for being too stubborn and blind to percieve how badly their beliefs deviate from reality.

I appreciate that you can see where I'm coming from. I used to have two religious friends on the net several years back because I played an RTS game with them. In the end I had to lose contact with them because we were just too different. And we just couldn't agree at all on a lot of things because of the whole "religion" thing. And there was not much agreement other than within the gaming. But I didn't learn my lesson then because I was quite a lot younger then and I actually thought that they were a rate occurance. When in fact they were probably quite moderate in comparison with most fundamentalists. They never preached anything to me for example. But they didn't believe in evolution. I don't think I ever asked or if they ever told me how old they thought the earth was. I wonder if they thought it was around 6000 years?! Hope not. They seemed too intelligent for that, surely. But I mean not to believe evolution is rather backward isn't it? Pretty mixed, weird. So I thought it was rare. I've only learned the last two years really how common religion is, and particularly how common fundamentalism is compared to how common I thought it was. In fact a few years ago I don't think even knew fundamentalism really existed. I mean I knew there were creationists who didn't believe in evolution. But I thought they thought the universe and earth was as old as we thought. I didn't think the thought we lived with dinosaurs/there were no dinosaurs at all!
I mean ffs! I've learned how common the religion/fundamentalist religion is actually in the last 2 years really, like I said.
Oh, and I guess thats because where I've lived, I've never really come into contact with any religious people off the net. Certainly not really religious people. Until the last two years, but thats since I've moved house (along side my family) I guess. Maybe thats why.
And the reason why I didn't really talk to people about religion and not know about it on the net much. Is because untill the last two months I've only ever used the net for gaming really.
About the fundamentalist part of your post, yeah I'll buy that. I can understand why you respect less 'wishy washy' beliefs more, probably because its less dishonest to be a fundamentalist atleast on average perhaps, but I also agree that fundamentalism is more dangerous because of its usual sheer ignorance.
And like Socrates said: "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." which I don't take as gospel of course, and very probably isn't that black and white. But I can certainly see some truth in it.
But also I think I've heard Dawkins and Sam Harris say for example, that often religious moderates give cover for the fundamentalits. So theres another bad side to the moderates I guess. But of course fundamentalism is more dangerous.
Sorry for long post, I had a lot to say lol.

Quote:And personal experience is NOT evidence. The evidence has to be demonstrated, and it has to be evidence that can be scientifically tested by the scientific method.

Personal experience is evidence, police use it all the time in getting statments from witnesses. An experience with God is "witnessed experience". Life is not tested by scientific method at all it is tested by trust levels. If some one trusts the faithfulness of a witness then the witness becomes evidence. I am going to share witness statements for God, if you trust me then you have all the evidence you need.

My Evidence
=========
Witness One
=========
One morning I woke up and I heard a voice say to me "How would you like to be stabbed and attacked in the valley"? The valley was the tough end of town, and I was a little afraid as I was going to be visiting the valley that day. Despite being a little afraid by the voice, thinking maybe I had done something wrong andd was going to be stabbed. I went down to the valley (after work I think it was), and I went up to a man and asked him out to church, he said "No I am an athiest". I said "fine", and just kept the conversation going. Soon after he said to me "This is why I don't believe in God", he opened up his shirt and showed me stab wounds, where he had been attacked with a knife in the valley some years before. I knew then that I was asked how would I like to be stabbed so I could sympathise with him. Latter of the way home (I took him home to his house) I bought up the story of what I had been told, he became very open to talking about God. SOme weeks latter he came out to church and became a christian.

Witness 2
=======
One day I was on my computer and was told Steve Erwin would die. Steve Erwin was a very famous person in our country. I was told to contact him and share the gospel with him. I was not certain of the voice, so I did not act (partly due to the fear). However some months latter steve Erwin was attacked by a sting ray and died as a result, the voice turned out to be telling the truth.

Witness 3
=======
I was praying asking God to reveal to me cures for common diseases; because my mind was on scientific topics I wondered would it not be cool to be able to recreate a dinosour. So I prayed and asked if I could create one. The Word "bood" entered my mind, I had no idea what the word ment so I looked it up on the Internet and I found it was a word used by a tribal group in asia to gently and with knidness say no. So I knew God was saying no.

Witness 4
=======
One day I saw to mormons walking into our neibour hood, I knew ther faith was not a real sort, that it was based upon error. I went up to them and confronted them and told them how in that neibour hood I had prayed for and healed a woman of a back complaint and they should listen to me. One was german, so I thought would it not be cool to speak in toungues to them. So I tried but it did not work. So I just kept saying ASK God to show you the trusth, pray and ask. Latter that night I was lying in bed and thought "what a goose I just made of my self" Then I heard the word "bitten" being spoken to me and I felt a hand touch me and say I love you. The voice said "tell them bitten". I was afraid so did not do it, I thought what does that mean it sounds like being bitten by a dog. Some time, probably a year a least I looked it up in a german dictionary I came accross, bitten meant to ask, plead, emplore, or pray. So I knew God was just wanting to back up what I had said about "Ask", Ask God. I emplore you reading this too to ask God to reveal him self to you in a real way.

(October 29, 2008 at 10:29 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote:

Quote:And personal experience is NOT evidence. The evidence has to be demonstrated, and it has to be evidence that can be scientifically tested by the scientific method.

Personal experience is evidence, police use it all the time in getting statments from witnesses. An experience with God is "witnessed experience". Life is not tested by scientific method at all it is tested by trust levels. If some one trusts the faithfulness of a witness then the witness becomes evidence. I am going to share witness statements for God, if you trust me then you have all the evidence you need.

My Evidence
=========
Witness One
=========
One morning I woke up and I heard a voice say to me "How would you like to be stabbed and attacked in the valley"? The valley was the tough end of town, and I was a little afraid as I was going to be visiting the valley that day. Despite being a little afraid by the voice, thinking maybe I had done something wrong andd was going to be stabbed. I went down to the valley (after work I think it was), and I went up to a man and asked him out to church, he said "No I am an athiest". I said "fine", and just kept the conversation going. Soon after he said to me "This is why I don't believe in God", he opened up his shirt and showed me stab wounds, where he had been attacked with a knife in the valley some years before. I knew then that I was asked how would I like to be stabbed so I could sympathise with him. Latter of the way home (I took him home to his house) I bought up the story of what I had been told, he became very open to talking about God. SOme weeks latter he came out to church and became a christian.

Witness 2
=======
One day I was on my computer and was told Steve Erwin would die. Steve Erwin was a very famous person in our country. I was told to contact him and share the gospel with him. I was not certain of the voice, so I did not act (partly due to the fear). However some months latter steve Erwin was attacked by a sting ray and died as a result, the voice turned out to be telling the truth.

Witness 3
=======
I was praying asking God to reveal to me cures for common diseases; because my mind was on scientific topics I wondered would it not be cool to be able to recreate a dinosour. So I prayed and asked if I could create one. The Word "bood" entered my mind, I had no idea what the word ment so I looked it up on the Internet and I found it was a word used by a tribal group in asia to gently and with knidness say no. So I knew God was saying no.

Witness 4
=======
One day I saw to mormons walking into our neibour hood, I knew ther faith was not a real sort, that it was based upon error. I went up to them and confronted them and told them how in that neibour hood I had prayed for and healed a woman of a back complaint and they should listen to me. One was german, so I thought would it not be cool to speak in toungues to them. So I tried but it did not work. So I just kept saying ASK God to show you the trusth, pray and ask. Latter that night I was lying in bed and thought "what a goose I just made of my self" Then I heard the word "bitten" being spoken to me and I felt a hand touch me and say I love you. The voice said "tell them bitten". I was afraid so did not do it, I thought what does that mean it sounds like being bitten by a dog. Some time, probably a year a least I looked it up in a german dictionary I came accross, bitten meant to ask, plead, emplore, or pray. So I knew God was just wanting to back up what I had said about "Ask", Ask God. I emplore you reading this too to ask God to reveal him self to you in a real way.

This is not evidence for God. I'm talking about scientific evidence. People can lie. Maths, the laws of physics and the scientific itself cannot. Only people can. And only people can get it wrong. The scientific method itself/ the laws of physics are consistent. If the scientific method doesn't get something right, the people got it wrong. Just as if someone gets the laws of physics wrong, its not the laws of physics that made a mistake. The understanding of the laws of physics/science itself etc, may change/develop but physics and science itself doesn't make mistakes.
I've already dealt with this whole "argument from personal experience" in another post, and I quote:

(October 10, 2008 at 9:18 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: From Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion - Arguments for God's existence - The argument from personal 'experience' - page 117:

Quote:"On the face of it mass visions, such as the report that seventy thousand pilgrims at Fatima in Portugal in 1917 saw the sun 'tear itself from the heavens and come crashing down upon the multitude,' are harder to write off. It is not easy to explain how seventy thousand people could share the same hallucination. But it is even harder to accept that it really happened without the rest of the world, outside Fatima, seeing it too - and not just seeing it, but feeling it as the catastrophic destruction of the solar system, including acceleration forces sufficient to hurl everybody into space. David Hume's pithy test for a miracle comes irresistibly to mind: 'No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavours to establish.'
It may seem improbable that seventy thousand people could simultaneously be deluded, or could simultaneously collude in a mass lie. Or that history is mistaken in recording that seventy thousand people claimed to see the sun dance. Or that they all simultaneously saw a mirage (they had been persuaded to stare at the sun, which can't have done much for their eyesight). But any of those apparent improbabilities is far more probable than the alternative: that the Earth was suddenly yanked sideways in its orbit, and the solar system destroyed, with nobody outsite Fatima noticing. I mean, Portugal is not that isolated."

So, basically...if seventy thousand people are wrong, you obviously [almost certainly] must be too.

So basically you feel you can not trust the witness. That is your choice. But it is still evidence for God. As for the mass visions they were clearly deluded, but that fact can not be used to say every body who has a religious experience is deluded; that is just not logically correct.

Because some people are deluded, means all people are deluded.

That statement does not stand up to scrutiny.

(October 29, 2008 at 11:02 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: So basically you feel you can not trust the witness. That is your choice. But it is still evidence for God. As for the mass visions they were clearly deluded, but that fact can not be used to say every body who has a religious experience is deluded; that is just not logically correct.

Because some people are deluded, means all people are deluded.

That statement does not stand up to scrutiny.

It just means 70,000 people can be wrong about a vision. And there is also ZERO scientific evidence for visions of God. So if 70,000 people can all think they've seen God, AND there is no scientific evidence, its just one of the many examples and reasons why personal experience is just NOT evidence of God.
I never said this was the only example, you just assumed I believed that. You also assume that I don't think witnesses can ever be trusted (if I understood you correctly). And this is perhaps rather like the assumption you make that God exists.
If many people dream vividly about 'the real Santa Claus' with his magical powers does that count as evidence towards the existence of 'the real Santa', who has magical powers(?)

All I am saying is I have had experiences that prove to me that God exists. I was not in some religious hiped up activity, I was in each case just going about my daily routine, I was not even praying at the time I recieved these messages. I know my witness is true.