One philosophical argument for existence of supernatural.

[Mystic]

Naturalism could perfectly well shape our brains which then shape concepts of ourselves in our brains.

I'm not saying we can't be given the concept, it's just that our concept can be illusionary given the naturalism perspective.

[tor]

Naturalism could perfectly well shape our brains which then shape concepts of ourselves in our brains.

I'm not saying we can't be given the concept, it's just that our concept can be illusionary given the naturalism perspective.

How do you know it's not illusory?

[Mystic]

I'm not saying we can't be given the concept, it's just that our concept can be illusionary given the naturalism perspective.

How do you know it's not illusory?

The how would be a trivial question. The important question would be do we know. If God exists, it's not farfetch that he can give metaphysical knowledge of the self, praise, value, morality, free-will etc. Exactly how he does so doesn't need to be known. The important question would be if we do know this to be true.

That question is not really up to debate. It's more something you have to ask yourself.

Majority of humans seem to believe this as knowledge, and don't see it as questionable.

[tor]

So it all comes down to faith. There is no argument.

[Mystic]

Without faith, we all would be moral nihilist.

[tor]

Hahaha. Oh no no no. Stop generalizing

[truthBtold]

George Michael had faith and he was caught jerking in the movie theater. .

[Rampant.A.I.]

How do you know it's not illusory?

The how would be a trivial question. The important question would be do we know. If God exists, it's not farfetch that he can give metaphysical knowledge of the self, praise, value, morality, free-will etc. Exactly how he does so doesn't need to be known. The important question would be if we do know this to be true.

That question is not really up to debate. It's more something you have to ask yourself.

Majority of humans seem to believe this as knowledge, and don't see it as questionable.

And in a perfect world, we could build a bubble around the planet to protect us from asteroid strikes.

The "how" is of prime importance: otherwise you're just making spurious claims about what is possible, and ignoring probability entirely.

The presupposition <God exists>
is required for any of the above premises to make sense, and is not simply "granted" as theists seem to believe and argue.

Belief, no matter how strongly held, is not a measure of validity. One could make any number of equally unsupported claims, and build on them with spurious conjecture, only to have them rejected as "ridiculous" by Christians.

The only reason the same lack of evidence claims seem to hold up to to Christians is indoctrination, the historical precedent of their beliefs being unquestionably held.

[Mystic]

Hahaha. Oh no no no. Stop generalizing

Bring evidence that opposes moral nihilism. And even if there was evidence that opposes it, at the end, most of humanity doesn't believe in morality due to that evidence, but based on faith.

The "how" is of prime importance: otherwise you're just making spurious claims about what is possible, and ignoring probability entirely.

In this case it's not. A person can simply say he knows value/praise to exist objectively without knowing how. He can say I don't know how, but I do know they exist. This is not a unreasonable answer. It's the same with morality. We don't have to explain how we know moral nihilism is false, to know it's false. The same is true of belief in free-will.

[bennyboy]

[quote='tor' pid='632317' dateline='1395605808']
In this case it's not. A person can simply say he knows value/praise to exist objectively without knowing how. He can say I don't know how, but I do know they exist. This is not a unreasonable answer. It's the same with morality. We don't have to explain how we know moral nihilism is false, to know it's false. The same is true of belief in free-will.

I don't think the word "know" means to you what it means to other people. You are using "know" to mean "have a sense of certainty about," without attaching sensible criteria for establishing whether that sense of certainty is arrived at in a meaningful way. But the correct word for that is "believe." To "know" something, it has to be rooted in some layer of reality objective to the opinion.