So U think Vegan is healthy?

[Aractus]

The invitation is still open if someone wants to debate whether veganism is good for everyone.

Here's the email I got from Alex Jamieson, she's quite clear in her answer:

• Hi Daniel,
  
  thanks for your email.
  
  I can't give you much insight, as I don't know the specifics about Harley.
  I can tell you that many, MANY people have come out to me (via email or face-to-face) in the last year with similar stories.
  
  They've been vegan for years, some over a decade. They follow vegan doctors' plans and still find their health faltering.
  When they add meat back into their diet, their health problems disappear.
  
  We are all different. Some people need meat for a while, or their entire lives.
  It's not a theory. It's fact.
  I still encourage people to try a plant-based detox if they feel compelled, or have a health problem that seems to warrant it.
  
  Be well,
  Alex

[Aractus]

Interesting video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDCyq69ud-M

I don't agree with everything that Christina says, at all, however she makes a very valid point that there is "no one ancient paleo diet"/"no one diet that's right for everyone". We actually need meat, and people 200,000 years ago to maybe 50 years ago couldn't get Vitamin B12 from anything other than meat or dairy, for instance (B12 was only discovered in 1948). Her assertion that some ancient people could have got all their nutrients from plants is therefore wrong, they would have perished with Anaemia. She is correct in saying that the majority of our diet is domesticated species, however that's not true for fish which is an entire food group that is largely unchanged and we eat it as it appears in the wild.

Also, and I'm not saying this as pro-paleo, but she is incredibly cynical of paleo to the point of ridiculousness. I mean she calls it a diet fad, when there is in fact science behind it and it is studied professionally as a science, and she nitpicks by saying that paleo people ate the organs of animals and we only eat the "meat" (ie muscle) which is also wrong because a lot of the pro-paleo actually do say to eat the organs and not just the muscle meat (do with that information what you want). So her cherry picking is a little obvious.

[Napoléon]

that's not true for fish which is an entire food group that is largely unchanged and we eat it as it appears in the wild.

I'm agreeing with much of what you've posted in this thread Aractus, but this sentence is rather amusing.

[Aractus]

All I mean is that most fish we eat isn't farmed and domesticated. We're in fact trying to domesticate bluefin tuna.

[fr0d0]

Not watched the videos yet. So are you saying we evolved from carnivores? I assume the veg angle is the opposite. What about other animals that are herbivore now? How do they survive on a veg only diet? Some of those aren't modest in bulk. I understand that protein from meat is a highly efficient food source, eg the growth spurt in the Japanese population in just one generation is supposedly due to the addition of a greater availability of meat protein.

Thinking some more, I have Sikh friends who are vegetarian, a cultural thing for them. Although it's OK to eat meat for those wishing to bulk up.. Gurdwharas are often dual function as gyms. Perhaps there's an understanding with them of the balance. A recent UK TV programming on the 5/2(?) diet was prefaced with a story of a 110 year old Sikh running a marathon. The guy ate a "basic Indian farmers" diet of vegetables and restricted calories.

I have a veggie friend who's a karate instructor. He's obviously very fit and thriving on his diet (of the past 15 years I've known him, possibly much longer).

[Aractus]

Not watched the videos yet. So are you saying we evolved from carnivores?

Nope. Watch the videos.

I assume the veg angle is the opposite. What about other animals that are herbivore now? How do they survive on a veg only diet? Some of those aren't modest in bulk. I understand that protein from meat is a highly efficient food source, eg the growth spurt in the Japanese population in just one generation is supposedly due to the addition of a greater availability of meat protein.

We're not herbivores - for instance we can't eat grass.

I have a veggie friend who's a karate instructor. He's obviously very fit and thriving on his diet (of the past 15 years I've known him, possibly much longer).

There's no one diet that suits everyone, some people do well on a vegan diet but many get seriously sick, for some it's avoidable and for many it's unavoidable.

[fr0d0]

Not watched the videos yet. So are you saying we evolved from carnivores?

Nope. Watch the videos.

I assume the veg angle is the opposite. What about other animals that are herbivore now? How do they survive on a veg only diet? Some of those aren't modest in bulk. I understand that protein from meat is a highly efficient food source, eg the growth spurt in the Japanese population in just one generation is supposedly due to the addition of a greater availability of meat protein.

We're not herbivores - for instance we can't eat grass.

You made a video? I asked what you are saying.

We are not herbivores, but the argument is, I think, that we evolved from herbivores which is why vegetarianism works. And if herbivores can extract enough protein from their diet then we should be able to too.

---

Searched and found this video on the subject. Takes her 7 minutes to get to the point, and then she's referring to expertise, but I am in agreement with her conclusions

Man? Vegetarian Vs. Meat Eater, Nutrition by Nata…: http://youtu.be/NS2r-Am0Dkk

[Aractus]

Protein isn't the only issue.

Vitamin C, for instance, is found in plant foods but not in any animal foods - Vitamin B12 is found in meat and not in any plant foods. And if you want to go the rout of evolution, we have had grains for the last 10,000 years (agriculture), for 200,000 years before that and the 2 million years of evolution before that we did not eat it in any significant amounts, yet for many people wheat is now a staple. Not my argument, but the argument of the paleo diet is that grain is deficient in nutrients, and because of that it shouldn't be a staple part of our diet but rather a smaller or non-existent part.

As Alex Jamieson said, it's a fact that some people need to eat meat. No I didn't make a video, I mean the four videos of Honey Rose/Harley in the OP - his story is that he was raised vegetarian, and went to veganism, had serious health problems from the age of 4 to the age of 26, and got better when going on a paleo diet. In his previous videos (on the channel) you can see his previous attempts at overcoming his illnesses and the fact that nothing worked as effectively as going to the paleo diet (excluding of course his corset which he still needs to wear, he said that the paleo diet cured almost all of his problems except for his back pain).

[Rahul]

Dude, I'm very pro meat eating, but the paleo diet has been ranked at the very bottom of just about every kind of diet that's been compared to it.

[fr0d0]

I see nothing in Harley's story that makes any comment on the evolution issue, which was the comment you responded to.

I don't see that much interesting in Harley's story. He seemed to be a bit of a nut. Nothing a good slap every day wouldn't solve

I'm interested if the fossil record shows any progression in our teeth arrangement. If some people need meat does that make them weaker genetically?