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(April 4, 2014 at 10:39 pm)psychoslice Wrote: Any diet can be healthy is its balanced, a meat diet can be healthy if it had lots of vegetables and fruit. I'm a vegetarian myself, mainly because it agrees with me, its really silly to argue one is better than the other, as I said there all good if correctly balanced.
Well, that's a theory, and the competing theory is that cereal grains, especially in high amounts, are bad for humans and particularly bad for some humans which means that we have to eat meat.
Well that's your truth it doesn't mean that you have the very truth, does it ?
April 5, 2014 at 3:26 am (This post was last modified: April 5, 2014 at 3:53 am by Aractus.)
No, it's not my truth - it's a theory that I'll be looking into.
One of the things many ex-vegans agree on is that, generally speaking this is, the negative effects take up to 20 years to develop and become apparent. Another thing is that some vegans view ex-vegans as the worst most horrible humans imaginable. Look up Alex Jamieson, and you'll have no trouble finding plenty more hating on her just like the one I posted before from vegans who, and some feel like they've been legitimately betrayed by her as if she owed them something, view her and other ex-vegans as dishonest and hypocrites and evil and weak, she'll be branded as murderer and a rapist etc. In fact some ex-vegans will even say that they themselves viewed ex-vegans that way too before ending it. Some ex-vegans actually changed because of the amount of hate and anger within themselves. You just have to look at some of the extremist behaviour of terrorist vegan groups like Sea Shepherd to see what this looks like in action.
Furthermore many people who try the vegan diet and are unable to continue with it, as Alex Jamieson says, feel like miserable failures. There's a huge psychology behid veganism and one that you cannot deny, and I don't think that culture is healthy even if the diet is actually healthier than an omni diet.
But I'm still willing to learn what the consequences are, and what the risks are for all types of foods - and if grass seeds are being over-consumed, if that's legitimate, then it's terrifying because billions of people use it as a staple food.
Another sick person heals after going ex-vegan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQHsPYpvAs8
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
April 5, 2014 at 12:54 pm (This post was last modified: April 5, 2014 at 12:56 pm by Silver.)
Veganism, done properly, does not lead to overall health problems. As someone already mentioned, some people will have deficiencies while dieting a certain way, because they are not aware of how to do it properly. Just because someone is having a problem with veganism does not mean that the person must need meat.
I never had any health issues when I was vegan, because I knew what I was doing. The problem is that most people think they can become vegetarians or vegans without doing any proper research, thus they end up hurting themselves.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
April 5, 2014 at 9:07 pm (This post was last modified: April 5, 2014 at 9:08 pm by Aractus.)
(April 5, 2014 at 12:54 pm)Kitanetos Wrote: Veganism, done properly, does not lead to overall health problems. As someone already mentioned, some people will have deficiencies while dieting a certain way, because they are not aware of how to do it properly. Just because someone is having a problem with veganism does not mean that the person must need meat.
Parroting the same line doesn't make it become fact. What you are saying is a theory, and it hasn't been proven and the onus of proof is on the one making a claim.
Another theory - and this has not been proven either mind you - is that diets high in cereal grains are unhealthy because, among other things, they have high levels of indigestible matter. This is the basis of the paleo diet.
Vegan diets are dependant on cereal grains, they often make the environmental claim that all the land used for rearing livestock could instead be used to grow grain; as if cereals are more healthy for humans than meat.
As Daniel Vitalis says in the last video above, vegetarianism is an experiment, and as it's an experiment it is irresponsible to tell people that they should eat a certain way that is different from our traditional diets and that it will be healthy for them, until there is evidence to support the claim.
What you're saying is that all these vegans with health problems - they don't count because they "weren't doing it right"; that is not a scientifically valid argument. The truth is that over 75% of people who choose to go vegetarian or vegan go back to an omni diet within 5 or 6 years. On that fact alone the vegetarian diet is essentially disproven: at least 75% fail the diet.
I used to agree with you - my view shifted two days ago. I used to agree that in principle you can get all the required nutrition in your diet without meat products, and my criticism was always that it takes a lot of planning and isn't easy and you need suppliments - I no longer believe this because it hasn't been proven. You and others simply parrot the same claim over and over but don't bring a sufficient level of evidence to support or prove your thesis. So I now agree with the viewpoint as stated by Daniel Vitalis which I already summed up above (it's an experiment we don't know if it's right for everyone, etc).
Quote:I never had any health issues when I was vegan, because I knew what I was doing. The problem is that most people think they can become vegetarians or vegans without doing any proper research, thus they end up hurting themselves.
If you're talking about Harley's story in the OP then the onus of proof is on you - what was he doing wrong?
If you want to talk anecdotal evidence, if that's really what you want to do, I know one person who's been vegetarian for about 40 years, and has a number of health problems that I'm sure are to do with diet deficiencies. Does my anecdotal evidence also count?
Simply making the same claims over and over isn't healthy, scientific or respectful because you're saying to someone who gets sick on a vegan diet "you don't count", and that's not a nice attitude to have towards others. I agree with Alex Jamieson to an extent on this one, which is that we shouldn't be judgemental to the choices others make for their diets and that certainly includes what you, and plenty of others, seem to be doing which is saying to ex-vegans that they did something wrong. That they must have done something wrong - the only explanation you will accept is that they did something wrong. That's judging others because you don't want to open your theory* to criticism and scrutiny.
*THE THEORY THAT GOES: "VEGANISM, DONE PROPERLY, DOES NOT LEAD TO OVERALL HEALTH PROBLEMS".
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
Which I wrote yesterday, and then ghostwrote about 1/3rd today (yep, as weird as that sounds). I also sent an email to Alex Jamieson to ask if in her professional opinion it's true that Harley did something wrong as a vegan, if she gives me an answer the answer will be posted on my blog.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
At 4:54 Honey says about her condition: "there are no treatments to make it go away". Okay so you get the gist of it, she is unable to stand for long lengths of time and spends most of her life lying down, has seen dozens of doctors to no avail.
Quote:After only 3 months of eating fresh cuts of beef, lamb, venison and chicken I have gained so much strength and muscle mass. I would never have guessed I would be making a video like this. Doctors told me my condition seemed permanent and degenerative. I was literally shopping for a wheelchair just before the switch. As you can see, I have a strong will, but I physically couldn't work out before, because long-term veganism made my body weak.
I was raised vegetarian vegan on a healthy diet, no fast food crap. I was a sprinter and a ballet dancer, but I always struggled with weakness and chest pain during exercise. However, my health got worse and worse over the years, and I was chronically ill from age 7. I never wanted to give in and eat defenseless animals, and I had not seen enough evidence to support it being necessary for health. I defended myself all through school, researched healthy diets and tried to figure out why I was sick. Doctors did all the tests they could, noone could figure it out. I was on painkillers, antibiotics and eventually an inhaler.
I came off it all and tried to make my diet the healthiest it could be. I tried all the different vegan diets I could over the course of 5 years, but I was only getting sicker and sicker.
I was finally convinced to eat meat by Dr Loren Cordain's work, and the documentary "The Perfect Human Diet". I did not expect eating this way would heal me, as nothing had worked so far. However, it is so clear that diet is the reason for my improvement in health, as it is the only variable that changed in my life. I can also feel a massive difference in my body and mind since eating this way. Veganism caused me so much suffering, sometimes it's unbearable to think about. I'm lucky to be alive.
Vegans: I've actually saved many thousands of animals from death with my previous work educating people about cruel animal rearing practices. I now choose to eat the most ethical meat I can, and consume it with gratitude.
Please share this video, especially with any sick vegans or vegetarians. Noone could give me a good reason to eat meat before I read Dr Loren Cordain's research. I then read about dietary lectins, which seem to trigger my worst symptoms. Those two pieces of knowledge saved my life, so please share with those who need to know.
The animals I eat are vegetables long before they get to my plate.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
I was asked, and the answer is yes: if anyone wants to debate on this topic, just send me a message and I am up for it.
For the record, my challenge to all vegans on this forum still stands: if Harley did something wrong as a vegan, please be specific and let me know what it was.
If no one can tell me what he did wrong then it means that veganism made him sick and was unavoidable in his case.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
