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(December 22, 2009 at 8:17 am)tackattack Wrote: Since Frodo didn't answer them directly I'll take a stab to stir up conversation.
1: Perhaps it knew (presupposing consciousness) that we couldn't handle such knowledge. It's evident by the destruction man has wrought on this planet and to each other. What creator would want it's creations to destroy other creations? I'm pretty sure it's called the tred of "good and evil" in most translations, not self-awareness. Knowledge (of whatever) does not predicate self-awareness.
2:I see it as a restriction from a perfect place. In the schema of eternity what's a few millenium in a world where we have to fend for ourselves. My dad put me on restriction all the time.
3tupidity supposes intelligence and consciouness. The rest is a false dichotomy. I didn't leave my wallet on the table to test my wife to see if she'd steal from me. I didn't care if she took anything either, she'd done it before and would do it again. I put it there because I got busy playing games and it was a thorn in my butt when I sat down.
1. If it knew we couldn't handle that knowledge, then why even create the tree in the first place? It seems pointless for a creator to create a tree for the sole purpose of causing trouble. Also, creators wanting its creations to destroy other creations is mind boggling. Many times in the bible God wants the children of Israel to sacrifice their animals. Why God wants his followers to destroy his creations are beyond me. If he is all-knowing, then he should know that they are faithful to him and doesn't need them to demonstrate it by sacrifice.
2. I have to agree with the original 2 "God has a tendency for over the top punishments." In either Exodus, Leviticus, or Numbers (I forget which), a man is killed for working on Sunday, and all the man did was gather sticks.
3. The thing that stuck out to me in your number 3 point is that you did not care. If you did care, you probably would have put it in a safer spot. God did care and he showed that by punishing the rest of humanity for two people's mistake. A logical being would have put the tree in a place that was not accessible by people.
December 23, 2009 at 12:34 am (This post was last modified: December 23, 2009 at 12:39 am by TruthWorthy.)
I think that's why they invented the new testament. The old story was anti-capitalist or 'pro-decapitatist'. The fact that so many world breaking truths were destroying the claims in the bible, such as evolution, discoveries made in and through science such as dinosaurs and dna, and the fact that such a long time has elapsed for acts of the nature written in the bible.
Something had to happen. It had to change in an effective way that would move society forward and 'breathe new life' into the religion (yes, the pun from Darwin's first book).
Burning bushes, parting seas, garden of eden were becoming outdated so the revise the old testament and make this new testament from the old and christians everywhere are sucked in by it. Most whom I've spoken regarding the bible say the old testament has been replaced by the new one while most hadn't even read the new testament through.
The comparisons between the two are far too astounding to be coincidental.
Coming soon: Banner image-link to new anti-islam forum.
(December 22, 2009 at 8:17 am)tackattack Wrote: Since Frodo didn't answer them directly I'll take a stab to stir up conversation.
1: Perhaps it knew (presupposing consciousness) that we couldn't handle such knowledge. It's evident by the destruction man has wrought on this planet and to each other. What creator would want it's creations to destroy other creations? I'm pretty sure it's called the tred of "good and evil" in most translations, not self-awareness. Knowledge (of whatever) does not predicate self-awareness.
2:I see it as a restriction from a perfect place. In the schema of eternity what's a few millenium in a world where we have to fend for ourselves. My dad put me on restriction all the time.
3tupidity supposes intelligence and consciouness. The rest is a false dichotomy. I didn't leave my wallet on the table to test my wife to see if she'd steal from me. I didn't care if she took anything either, she'd done it before and would do it again. I put it there because I got busy playing games and it was a thorn in my butt when I sat down.
1. If it knew we couldn't handle that knowledge, then why even create the tree in the first place? It seems pointless for a creator to create a tree for the sole purpose of causing trouble. Also, creators wanting its creations to destroy other creations is mind boggling. Many times in the bible God wants the children of Israel to sacrifice their animals. Why God wants his followers to destroy his creations are beyond me. If he is all-knowing, then he should know that they are faithful to him and doesn't need them to demonstrate it by sacrifice.
2. I have to agree with the original 2 "God has a tendency for over the top punishments." In either Exodus, Leviticus, or Numbers (I forget which), a man is killed for working on Sunday, and all the man did was gather sticks.
3. The thing that stuck out to me in your number 3 point is that you did not care. If you did care, you probably would have put it in a safer spot. God did care and he showed that by punishing the rest of humanity for two people's mistake. A logical being would have put the tree in a place that was not accessible by people.
1. The Bible is the fallible man's explination of God. As religion has developed, we've seen the err of sacrifice of objects. Love is sacrifice. I love my wife and would sacrifice anything for her. God's perfect love has no need of sacrifice in my opinion. As far as creating for creation's sake, go ask an artist why he paints or sculpts. "The music that really turns me on is either running toward God or away from God. Both recognize the pivot, that God is at the center of the jaunt." Bono. "O great creator of being grant us one more hour to perform our art and perfect our lives." Jim Morrison
2. You're assuming that God is punishing you and not youself, your subconscious or your fellow man.
3. You're assuming God is logical and works by the constraints of logic. Maybe it looked good on the hill, or in the valey. Maybe the colors contratsed best against the orange trees next door. No one knows, but to create beings that have dominion over all then not give them physical access to that thing doesn't seem logical either, but then I'm commiting the same fallacy.
(December 23, 2009 at 12:34 am)TruthWorthy Wrote: I think that's why they invented the new testament. The old story was anti-capitalist or 'pro-decapitatist'. The fact that so many world breaking truths were destroying the claims in the bible, such as evolution, discoveries made in and through science such as dinosaurs and dna, and the fact that such a long time has elapsed for acts of the nature written in the bible.
Something had to happen. It had to change in an effective way that would move society forward and 'breathe new life' into the religion (yes, the pun from Darwin's first book).
Burning bushes, parting seas, garden of eden were becoming outdated so the revise the old testament and make this new testament from the old and christians everywhere are sucked in by it. Most whom I've spoken regarding the bible say the old testament has been replaced by the new one while most hadn't even read the new testament through.
The comparisons between the two are far too astounding to be coincidental.
I agree that the 2 are seperate beasts. The Tenakh lays the foundation through mythos and moralistic story. The New testaments see the fufillments of a lot of those prophesies with a lot of quotation of the OT. I wouldn't consider it a replacement at all, I see it as a progressive understanding. Personally I don't think science's "world breaking truths were destroying the claims in the bible" in any way. If that makes you label me apologetic then so be it.
(December 22, 2009 at 8:17 am)tackattack Wrote: Since Frodo didn't answer them directly I'll take a stab to stir up conversation.
1: Perhaps it knew (presupposing consciousness) that we couldn't handle such knowledge. It's evident by the destruction man has wrought on this planet and to each other. What creator would want it's creations to destroy other creations? I'm pretty sure it's called the tred of "good and evil" in most translations, not self-awareness. Knowledge (of whatever) does not predicate self-awareness.
2:I see it as a restriction from a perfect place. In the schema of eternity what's a few millenium in a world where we have to fend for ourselves. My dad put me on restriction all the time.
3tupidity supposes intelligence and consciouness. The rest is a false dichotomy. I didn't leave my wallet on the table to test my wife to see if she'd steal from me. I didn't care if she took anything either, she'd done it before and would do it again. I put it there because I got busy playing games and it was a thorn in my butt when I sat down.
1. If it knew we couldn't handle that knowledge, then why even create the tree in the first place? It seems pointless for a creator to create a tree for the sole purpose of causing trouble. Also, creators wanting its creations to destroy other creations is mind boggling. Many times in the bible God wants the children of Israel to sacrifice their animals. Why God wants his followers to destroy his creations are beyond me. If he is all-knowing, then he should know that they are faithful to him and doesn't need them to demonstrate it by sacrifice.
2. I have to agree with the original 2 "God has a tendency for over the top punishments." In either Exodus, Leviticus, or Numbers (I forget which), a man is killed for working on Sunday, and all the man did was gather sticks.
3. The thing that stuck out to me in your number 3 point is that you did not care. If you did care, you probably would have put it in a safer spot. God did care and he showed that by punishing the rest of humanity for two people's mistake. A logical being would have put the tree in a place that was not accessible by people.
(December 23, 2009 at 4:02 am)tackattack Wrote: 1. The Bible is the fallible man's explination of God. As religion has developed, we've seen the err of sacrifice of objects. Love is sacrifice. I love my wife and would sacrifice anything for her. God's perfect love has no need of sacrifice in my opinion. As far as creating for creation's sake, go ask an artist why he paints or sculpts. "The music that really turns me on is either running toward God or away from God. Both recognize the pivot, that God is at the center of the jaunt." Bono. "O great creator of being grant us one more hour to perform our art and perfect our lives." Jim Morrison
2. You're assuming that God is punishing you and not youself, your subconscious or your fellow man.
3. You're assuming God is logical and works by the constraints of logic. Maybe it looked good on the hill, or in the valey. Maybe the colors contratsed best against the orange trees next door. No one knows, but to create beings that have dominion over all then not give them physical access to that thing doesn't seem logical either, but then I'm commiting the same fallacy.
1. Artists and musicians have a purpose for creating their pictures and music. Whether the purpose be just to pass time, to create something to move people, or for their enjoyment only, they are still creating for a purpose. How did you come to the conclusion that God's perfect love needs no sacrifice?
2. I made no assumptions in my number 2, I simply stated a punishment God gave a man. Punishing "you and not yourself" makes no sense.
(December 22, 2009 at 8:17 am)tackattack Wrote: Since Frodo didn't answer them directly I'll take a stab to stir up conversation.
1: Perhaps it knew (presupposing consciousness) that we couldn't handle such knowledge. It's evident by the destruction man has wrought on this planet and to each other. What creator would want it's creations to destroy other creations? I'm pretty sure it's called the tred of "good and evil" in most translations, not self-awareness. Knowledge (of whatever) does not predicate self-awareness.
2:I see it as a restriction from a perfect place. In the schema of eternity what's a few millenium in a world where we have to fend for ourselves. My dad put me on restriction all the time.
3tupidity supposes intelligence and consciouness. The rest is a false dichotomy. I didn't leave my wallet on the table to test my wife to see if she'd steal from me. I didn't care if she took anything either, she'd done it before and would do it again. I put it there because I got busy playing games and it was a thorn in my butt when I sat down.
1. If it knew we couldn't handle that knowledge, then why even create the tree in the first place? It seems pointless for a creator to create a tree for the sole purpose of causing trouble. Also, creators wanting its creations to destroy other creations is mind boggling. Many times in the bible God wants the children of Israel to sacrifice their animals. Why God wants his followers to destroy his creations are beyond me. If he is all-knowing, then he should know that they are faithful to him and doesn't need them to demonstrate it by sacrifice.
2. I have to agree with the original 2 "God has a tendency for over the top punishments." In either Exodus, Leviticus, or Numbers (I forget which), a man is killed for working on Sunday, and all the man did was gather sticks.
3. The thing that stuck out to me in your number 3 point is that you did not care. If you did care, you probably would have put it in a safer spot. God did care and he showed that by punishing the rest of humanity for two people's mistake. A logical being would have put the tree in a place that was not accessible by people.
(December 23, 2009 at 4:02 am)tackattack Wrote: 1. The Bible is the fallible man's explination of God. As religion has developed, we've seen the err of sacrifice of objects. Love is sacrifice. I love my wife and would sacrifice anything for her. God's perfect love has no need of sacrifice in my opinion. As far as creating for creation's sake, go ask an artist why he paints or sculpts. "The music that really turns me on is either running toward God or away from God. Both recognize the pivot, that God is at the center of the jaunt." Bono. "O great creator of being grant us one more hour to perform our art and perfect our lives." Jim Morrison
2. You're assuming that God is punishing you and not youself, your subconscious or your fellow man.
3. You're assuming God is logical and works by the constraints of logic. Maybe it looked good on the hill, or in the valey. Maybe the colors contratsed best against the orange trees next door. No one knows, but to create beings that have dominion over all then not give them physical access to that thing doesn't seem logical either, but then I'm commiting the same fallacy.
1. Artists and musicians have a purpose for creating their pictures and music. Whether the purpose be just to pass time, to create something to move people, or for their enjoyment only, they are still creating for a purpose. How did you come to the conclusion that God's perfect love needs no sacrifice?
2. I made no assumptions in my number 2, I simply stated a punishment God gave a man. Punishing "you and not yourself" makes no sense.
3. You're right, I'm assuming God isn't a moron.
1. And you think an eternal entity couldn't possibly pass the time creating things? Or enjoy creation for the beauty of it. You assert that he did it only to cause trouble when there are a wide variety of reasonable possibilities.
1a. We love conditionally; in other words, we love someone because they fulfill a condition that we require before we can love them. Our love is also mercurial. It changes with emotions and circumstances. God's Love is unconditional. From my idea of his perspective there is no sacrifice required from us for his love. If you're reffering to the crusifixion as God's sacrifice for us. If he exists outside our universe and has dominion over this universe then letting his son take a day trip to little old Earth and then coming right back is more of an expirement than a sacrifice.
2. And how do you know that God punished man? On reread that was a little nonsensical. I was stating that You're under the assumption God punishes. I assert that we punish ourselves and each other.
3. You're deflecting and I was merely pointing out that you are relying on logic to fathom why 1 tree ended up where it did out of all of the creations of our universe and that humans had access to it. This is all barring that it's not just a moralistic story and the biblical version is suppsed to reflect 100% historical accuracy in a time when only 2 people existed on earth?
tackattack said:2." And how do you know that God punished man? On reread that was a little nonsensical. I was stating that You're under the assumption God punishes. I assert that we punish ourselves and each other."
I suggest you reread your bible since you are demonstrating that you clearly have very little knowledge of what is written within its pages. Here is Isaiah prophesying supposedly gods words regarding punishment.
Isaiah 13:11 (Whole Chapter)
And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
The biblical tale of Adam and Eve clearly states that when they disobeyed god that all mankind had inherited their sin. Whether the tale is literal or allegorical is irrelevant but it is the key reason that Jesus had to die on the cross to redeem mankinds relationship with god. Jesus did this vicariously through his own sufferings and ultimately sacrificing his own life. Although I don't believe any of it was true that is basically what it says.
There is nothing people will not maintain when they are slaves to superstition
tackattack said:2." And how do you know that God punished man? On reread that was a little nonsensical. I was stating that You're under the assumption God punishes. I assert that we punish ourselves and each other."
I suggest you reread your bible since you are demonstrating that you clearly have very little knowledge of what is written within its pages. Here is Isaiah prophesying supposedly gods words regarding punishment.
Isaiah 13:11 (Whole Chapter)
And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
The biblical tale of Adam and Eve clearly states that when they disobeyed god that all mankind had inherited their sin. Whether the tale is literal or allegorical is irrelevant but it is the key reason that Jesus had to die on the cross to redeem mankinds relationship with god. Jesus did this vicariously through his own sufferings and ultimately sacrificing his own life. Although I don't believe any of it was true that is basically what it says.
I had forgotten all about this thread. Thanks corbeezejd!
1. I think I have a great grasp of the knowledge present in the Bible. Let's examine the creation story then, since we're using that as an example of God punishing Man. Was man punished or exiled? Exiled where, to the world outside of the garden of evil? What did "Eden" have that other things didn't? Well we'll skip the physical things and it was also a seperation from God's presence.
2. Let's extrapolate the timeline a little from there as a theory. Kicked out of paradise to fend for our own for years with this "original sin" humans struggled and built societies, cities, idols, monuments. Lived by the "laws of the land" and instinctually until the ideas of justice formed. Then laws and other societal structures formed.. all based off that original sin. Now after years living apart from God we've built societies, religion, justice and science and it's full of destrution and territorial wars, humanistic materialism, ignorance and hate. God sends warnings like floods, visions, miracles but none will work so he sends his son. People record the old signs (OT) and try to divine reasons and prophesy. The humans are quite happy with what they've built and reject this man claiming to be God and crucify him, seperating themselves from God again. But Christ's sacrifice at least forgave us from our sins at that point and taught us how to get back into communication with God. A religion formed around this Christ and books were written about his teachings (NT). FF to today.
3. In the OT (like Isiah) we contributed lots of things to God which today science helps explain better. Some things are interpreted by men, which put aspects of humanity and gender into it. Some things are so fantastical that they're not believable by most counts (They could be metaphors but we'll never know). Today we're still seperated from God and I propose this Earth is outside of God's love and his Eden. We can work to make it better, but I see no utopia or faith in all of mankind. Earth, today, is a mostly-man-made construct of rules, science, war, hate, society, justice based of human intellect, perception and action. You may have at one point seen something in your life as punishment from God. I'm not saying that God doesn't allow punishment come to you. I don't see any of teh sad and terrible thigns mentioned on the news or on this site as attributable to God, merely effects of Mankind. God's lasting punishment is to let us fend for ourselves till we find our way back to him.
tupidity supposes intelligence and consciouness. The rest is a false dichotomy. I didn't leave my wallet on the table to test my wife to see if she'd steal from me. I didn't care if she took anything either, she'd done it before and would do it again. I put it there because I got busy playing games and it was a thorn in my butt when I sat down.
