Heaven and The Problem of Evil

[*Deidre*]

Ah, but it is the fall of mankind in the garden of Eden that brought forth evil into this world. Not God. The Christian God is all powerful, all knowing and always good. It is man who is responsible for alllllllll the evil in the world.

Even though Christianity teaches that God made man, I guess he didn't know how fucked up the story would get?
Well...His ways are not our ways.

I miss Christianity!

[Coffee Jesus]

An omnipotent being could restrict our choices in any way it wants. If there really was a "fall from grace", it's because the omnipotent being gave us the choice to fall from grace.

I miss Christianity!

I miss Buddhism. I was never really a Catholic. The preists and nuns were never holy through my eyes.

[*Deidre*]

Coffee Jesus said:

I miss Buddhism. I was never really a Catholic. The preists and nuns were never holy through my eyes.

I was kidding! :p

[Ryantology]

An omnipotent being could restrict our choices in any way it wants. If there really was a "fall from grace", it's because the omnipotent being gave us the choice to fall from grace.

It's more than just giving us a choice. God put all the pieces into place to ensure that the wrong choice would screw everything up, and he did it intentionally, with foreknowledge that things would turn out the way they did.

If we are designed beings (or, even if we aren't), we didn't get any say in how human nature works. We have limited capacity to behave against our nature. We have no ability to alter it fundamentally.

If we are filthy, degenerate sinners, it can only be because an omnipotent and omniscient God intentionally designed us to be. Yet, it's our fault somehow.

[Neo-Scholastic]

If there is a transformation, why didn't God just make us like that in the first place?

I think its been made clear already. Love is a consentual relationship. Love that is instinctual or compelled is not true love.

In life you choose to either love the Lord and neighbor OR yourself and the world.
If you love the Lord He empowers you to overcome sin and purge yourself of evil desires you freely but mistakenly nurtured. This process of regeneration is called either deliverance or victory.

Free choice is never taken away. Good spirits that have left behind sinful desires use their freedom to choose various ways of doing good.

[ThomM]

There are LOTS of problems with the claims of religions - and they serve to point out that the characters of religions were/are human creations of many different people who contributed to the farce - and continue to do so

However - if you actually take the bible - and make a list of all the attributes of the god - that are claimed in the bible - the bible itself actually contradicts some of them - and they contradict each other - and collectively they cannot ALL be true - making the god of the religions - simply nonsense


For Example - when discussing "free will" - one forgets that the god is claimed to be ALL KNOWING - past- present and future. So - the god knows EVERYTHING that has happened and will happen - and that is the ONLY thing that can happen - ie - what the god knows.

THERE is no free will - since there is only ONE possible outcome to everything - the one that the god knows

Even the god cannot have free will - since it cannot do something he does not already know about - it must do what is known. And it cannot actually effect what will happen to change - since it has to happen the way it already knows it - or the claim of All knowing is not true

So - xtians - live with the fact that your claims cannot be true

[Ryantology]

If there is a transformation, why didn't God just make us like that in the first place?

I think its been made clear already. Love is a consentual relationship. Love that is instinctual or compelled is not true love.

You're actually implying that there is no compulsion element in Christian love. I bet you're even doing it with a straight face. You might even actually believe it.

I can't tell if that's horrifying or just pitiful.

[RobbyPants]

If there is a transformation, why didn't God just make us like that in the first place?

I think its been made clear already. Love is a consentual relationship. Love that is instinctual or compelled is not true love.

That's not what consent means. I could see what you meant if the threat of hell was off the table, but it isn't.

If an employer offers a woman to have sex or he'll fire her, that's considered coercion and is not consensual. If someone threatens to kill a woman unless she lets him have sex wit him, it's considered rape and is not consensual.

If God tells me that I should love him, but if I don't, he'll have me tortured for infinity years, that is considered coercion and is not consensual.

In life you choose to either love the Lord and neighbor OR yourself and the world.
If you love the Lord He empowers you to overcome sin and purge yourself of evil desires you freely but mistakenly nurtured. This process of regeneration is called either deliverance or victory.

Free choice is never taken away. Good spirits that have left behind sinful desires use their freedom to choose various ways of doing good.

You're stating that we have to be willing to hurt each other in order to prove that we love God, then after we pass that test, then he transforms us so that we have a sinless existence in heaven. Your approach literally says that we have evil and suffering on this world because God wants friends that love him.

That sounds incredibly narcissistic and callous.


"I have created you so that you may love me. You don't have to love me, but you should. You can demonstrate your love by loving each other... but you don't have to. You just should.

Hey! All that murder and rape is terrible and you shouldn't do it! I can't believe you're doing it! Oh no! I'm not going to stop it, but I guess you failed the test and don't love me. I'm glad I was able to figure that out."



Edit:
I thought of a better analogy for why this makes no sense to me. Basically, it seems like you're saying that God can't create white paint without first creating grey paint and then running it through a centrifuge to get all the black out. Why can't he just make white? You already admitted that it can exist. It can even exist without sin. Why does it have to reject evil? Why can't it just not have evil? If those sinless people are capable of love, why did they have to be capable of murder first to be capable of love? If free will is so important to this, why can't the choices be love or indifference? Why does the choices have to be "love God" or "kill fred"?

[Neo-Scholastic]

I think its been made clear already. Love is a consentual relationship. Love that is instinctual or compelled is not true love.

That's not what consent means. I could see what you meant if the threat of hell was off the table, but it isn't.

If an employer offers a woman to have sex or he'll fire her, that's considered coercion and is not consensual. If someone threatens to kill a woman unless she lets him have sex wit him, it's considered rape and is not consensual.

If God tells me that I should love him, but if I don't, he'll have me tortured for infinity years, that is considered coercion and is not consensual.

In life you choose to either love the Lord and neighbor OR yourself and the world.
If you love the Lord He empowers you to overcome sin and purge yourself of evil desires you freely but mistakenly nurtured. This process of regeneration is called either deliverance or victory.

Free choice is never taken away. Good spirits that have left behind sinful desires use their freedom to choose various ways of doing good.

You're stating that we have to be willing to hurt each other in order to prove that we love God, then after we pass that test, then he transforms us so that we have a sinless existence in heaven. Your approach literally says that we have evil and suffering on this world because God wants friends that love him.

That sounds incredibly narcissistic and callous.


"I have created you so that you may love me. You don't have to love me, but you should. You can demonstrate your love by loving each other... but you don't have to. You just should.

Hey! All that murder and rape is terrible and you shouldn't do it! I can't believe you're doing it! Oh no! I'm not going to stop it, but I guess you failed the test and don't love me. I'm glad I was able to figure that out."



Edit:
I thought of a better analogy for why this makes no sense to me. Basically, it seems like you're saying that God can't create white paint without first creating grey paint and then running it through a centrifuge to get all the black out. Why can't he just make white? You already admitted that it can exist. It can even exist without sin. Why does it have to reject evil? Why can't it just not have evil? If those sinless people are capable of love, why did they have to be capable of murder first to be capable of love? If free will is so important to this, why can't the choices be love or indifference? Why does the choices have to be "love God" or "kill fred"?

Heaven is where you live in the presence of God among those that also love Him. Hell is where people voluntarily apart from God. The torture doesn't come from God. It comes from one's own "burning" lusts, living in the smoke and darkness of self delusions among others that think nothing of using others to satisfy their own desires. There is no compulsion.

[RobbyPants]

Heaven is where you live in the presence of God among those that also love Him. Hell is where people voluntarily apart from God. The torture doesn't come from God. It comes from one's own "burning" lusts, living in the smoke and darkness of self delusions among others that think nothing of using others to satisfy their own desires. There is no compulsion.

Yes, there is a compulsion. It's either join God or don't be happy. It doesn't matter if God isn't the one doing the torture; he's the one who set up the punishment/reward system.

If I tell you "do X or Fred will kill you", that's still compulsion.