numerical mriacle.....again

[thequestion]

Hello,

i am an ex-muslim, i am an atheist now.

I have to say that i have seen many of these numerical miracles, 19 based, 7 based, Surah khaf and so on and so forth and none of them have ever impressed me or let me doubt my belief.

Quite recently one of my muslim friends showed me this "miracle" in the Quran. Which i cannot get my head around at all. I just cannot belief that this happens by coincidence. This is imo very different from the rest of these numerical miracles which i call 100% bullshit. Maybe sb. can clarify this for me. ( I dont mean statements like " happens in ever book" or "there are so many numbers in the Quran" ).

This "miracle" is really straightforward and also impressive. And no, noone put it in there otherwise people would have known that a lot sooner and also whoever is familiar with the compilation of the quran, knows that this is even more unlikely to have happend intentionally. And no, it does not matter that there were other versions of the Quran or that it was complied later.

copied from <snip>

In this example we see clearly nummerical miracle, between odd and even numbers and how the correspond to sum of chapters and verses





Here, we have repetetive nummerical values from the table above
for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107, we summerize all repetitive nummerical values




Here, we have non-repetitive nummerical values, and we summerize them also



We can clearly see golden ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values from this table



The only objection i have found to this is, that given the total 12791 (=4885 + 7906). The more accurate divison to get close to the golden mean(=1.618033) point would be 7905/4886 = 1.61788... instead of 7906/4885 = 1.61842....

Here we go, anyone here not impressed by this? If so, why?
And yes i have read this response
<snip>
and yes, i know that there are many errors in the quran.

i have checked both of the claims, they are correct

bye for now and thanks for reading.

[Zen Badger]

Yay....more spam.

How wonderful.

But if you're an atheist I'm Donald Trump.

[thequestion]

Yay....more spam.

How wonderful.

But if you're an atheist I'm Donald Trump.

i bear witness, that mohammed was an asshole.

if u have actually read it, then i am mahatma ghandi.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I don't see any miracle.

[thequestion]

I don't see any miracle.

The miracle is, that the odds of finding similiar straight forward patterns in a book are so low that it would be completly absurd to assume that this happened by chance. People at the time of the compilation had a lot different concerns than including patterns and it would have been difficult to do without a PC.

If one of them happens i could accept, that this is mere chance ( considering the article http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/arti...-debunked/ ). But two of them, no way that this is only coincidence.

So, even i dont know what your definiton of "miracle" is, let me ask you this. Do you think, considering these two coincidences as a result of pure chance is absurd or not, and why?

thank you for your answer

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I think anyone reading too deeply into numerology needs to get their head examined.

Listen, the Quran May or may not have an example of the golden ration within it. That is neither here nor there as the Quran is simply a text containing plagiarized material from previous books/scriptures. I don't even know what you're trying to say is occurring.

I don't know what my definition of a miracle is either as it's subjective term. But I know numerology wouldn't cut it in any reality.

So, what are you getting at? What's your reasoning for believing that some interpretation of numbers that lead to other numbers equates to a miracle?

What made you de convert from Islam to hold no religious beliefs?

The miracle is, that the odds of finding similiar straight forward patterns in a book are so low that it would be completly absurd to assume that this happened by chance.

Why?

Oh sorry to answer your question, no, I'm not impressed. The variables that could have been tampered with are so high as to make any observation meaningless. I don't know the agenda or the methodology, I just have a mishmash of numbers thrown at the screen with a conclusion plus an analysis of 'amazing!'. Doesn't really impress me, if I'm honest.

[Cato]

Numerology, what a fucking joke.

How many combinations of numbers, assigned by counting collections of characters, can be combined into sets and then dividend against one another that don't result in the golden ratio? This is always ignored.

A proper god would not require numerology to prove his/her existence. This argument makes your god come across as quite feeble.

[thequestion]

I think anyone reading too deeply into numerology needs to get their head examined.

Listen, the Quran May or may not have an example of the golden ration within it. That is neither here nor there as the Quran is simply a text containing plagiarized material from previous books/scriptures. I don't even know what you're trying to say is occurring.

I don't know what my definition of a miracle is either as it's subjective term. But I know numerology wouldn't cut it in any reality.

So, what are you getting at? What's your reasoning for believing that some interpretation of numbers that lead to other numbers equates to a miracle?

What made you de convert from Islam to hold no religious beliefs?

The miracle is, that the odds of finding similiar straight forward patterns in a book are so low that it would be completly absurd to assume that this happened by chance.

Why?

Oh sorry to answer your question, no, I'm not impressed. The variables that could have been tampered with are so high as to make any observation meaningless. I don't know the agenda or the methodology, I just have a mishmash of numbers thrown at the screen with a conclusion plus an analysis of 'amazing!'. Doesn't really impress me, if I'm honest.

Thank you for your answer I really appreciate it.

Let it put me this way, i have studied islamic material a long long time before i decided to leave it. At least two years. And I feel quite comfortable to say, that I am probably one of the people on this earth who know the most reasons why not to believe in Islam.
It is from my perspective morally wrong in many instances, inhuman, homophobic and so on.
Objectivly speaking it has historical errors, plagarised fairy tales and scientific errors in it.
The whole concept of a god who punishes and creates life is completly absurd to me.
The islamic history and how muhammed raise to power is very much the opposite of what you would expect from a "prophet of god".
These are just a few very summarized reasons why i left islam.

The Problem is, that i am very precise in what i am doing and i want to understand everything, every single detail. And if something does not make sense to me then my world is in trouble. So the fact that this stuff occurs does not make any sense to me what so ever. It is easy to say that "patterns occur in books" , and it is true that they do. And for almost all of them i think that they are entirly plausible to occur, because their likelihood is quite high.

But I do not agree that there are 1000 of different possible patterns, i dont think so. There is not this almost infinite number of chances that impropable things occur, at least I dont see them.

---

How many combinations of numbers, assigned by counting collections of characters, can be combined into sets and then dividend against one another that don't result in the golden ratio? This is always ignored.

elaborate please

thank you

[jesus_wept]

I've come across this miracle before and my biggest problem with it is that, to get the golden ratio, you have to ignore half the numbers in the answer. 7906/4885=1.61842375 and the golden ratio is 1.61803398875 (and it continues into infinity so 1.618 isn't the golden ratio anyway). The standard reply to this, from the apologist, is that they're simply rounding the numbers off (because miracles need a helping hand?) but the simple fact is that it's contrived and dishonest bullshit and there is nothing miraculous about it.

[Cato]

How many combinations of numbers, assigned by counting collections of characters, can be combined into sets and then dividend against one another that don't result in the golden ratio? This is always ignored.

elaborate please

thank you

Count the number of 'pick a letter' on every page or in every paragraph if you like. Choose an arbitrary number, say 100. Divide the number of paragraphs/pages containing over 100 of the letter you chose by those containing less than 100. Do you get the golden ration? No? Ok, change the set to include paragraphs/pages containing 99 and repeat. Or you could pick a different letter. Or maybe just count sentences. Don't forget to try the inverse before moving on.

Once you stumble upon some combination of arbitrarily chosen sets that approximate the golden ratio take to the internet and proclaim the existence of Allah. It's hard for me to believe that anyone finds this type of argument convincing. Do you and your ilk easily get distracted by flashing lights?