Kurt Westergaard escapes murder attempt.

[Pippy]

Submission to the will of Allah though, not submission to other people. It is not about being slaves, it is about being humble and appreciative of being allowed to be alive. Submission can of course be a good thing, as much as it can be a bad one. Submit to the fact that there are things we can't control. Submit to the fact that there are things we can control, but we should not. And what you are left with is the things you can and should control.

Islam is misunderstood and demonized nowadays, but it is untrue and part of an agenda of misinformation. It is "divide and conquer' bullshit.

I have met many Muslims, may be a few hundred, and have yet to meet one who is dangerous or hateful.

And yes, I think Adrian did tip over a little there. It is like the Hitler argument in the sense that you can't blame a man's beliefs (or especially others who share similar beleifs) for his own shortcomings. If an Atheist is bound to be responsible for his own actions, so is a Theist.

I don't let god be an excuse, you disbelievers certainly should not as well.

[Edwardo Piet]

And yes, I think Adrian did tip over a little there. It is like the Hitler argument in the sense that you can't blame a man's beliefs (or especially others who share similar beleifs) for his own shortcomings. If an Atheist is bound to be responsible for his own actions, so is a Theist.

What's funny is not only do I disagree with that but I personally believe the complete opposite. I do not believe in Free Will and I also ultimately do not (or at least always try not to) blame anybody for their character but only for their behaviour and actions (if that makes sense?). Beliefs are what drive people's behaviour, so I believe that beliefs are the only thing that you can (justly) blame. Just as this belief that I have that I am mentioning here (the belief I have that beliefs are the only thing that you can (justly) blame), if it were to cause me to live my life in ways that harmed others then it, this belief, is what is to blame... it is simply that it is dealt with by dealing with me who is the holder of the said belief.

EvF

[Autumnlicious]

Submission to the will of Allah though, not submission to other people. It is not about being slaves, it is about being humble and appreciative of being allowed to be alive. Submission can of course be a good thing, as much as it can be a bad one. Submit to the fact that there are things we can't control. Submit to the fact that there are things we can control, but we should not. And what you are left with is the things you can and should control.

Let me stop you right there - splitting hairs while the ox is on fire helps no one but only serves to distract. As someone who read the holy Qu'ran and still clutches his head whenever Muslims talk about the "science" of the Qu'ran, submission to Allah and their behaviors is expected to be what your life is about. Sure, you can kill, maim and butcher your opposition on the side, but only a fool lets Islam, and by extension Allah, fall to the wayside.

Don't forget too that everyone who isn't Muslim is partially Muslim - they just haven't accepted it yet, and agents who turn away from Islam (apostates) are the encouraged targets to serve holy justice. The Christian Bible contains similar material, but has a (thankful for this one) schizophrenia that combines stone age thunder and lightning with conflicting stories about Jesus the nice guy and Jesus the preacher.

The Qu'ran doesn't really have that - by far the most boring book I've ever read because it was so damn monotonous and predictable. Finding "nice" Qu'ran quotes is like fishing for a single line of fun amid dozens of similarly phrased lines about submission. Just submission.

After a while, you start wondering where submission starts and ends. And no, it is not explicitly spelled out.

Islam is misunderstood and demonized nowadays, but it is untrue and part of an agenda of misinformation. It is "divide and conquer' bullshit.

I have met many Muslims, may be a few hundred, and have yet to meet one who is dangerous or hateful.

Were the vigilant exhortations of the masses whipped up by their imams to behead the Danish cartoonist's misunderstood? How about the many people who died in the frenzy? Huh? What about the exhortations to kill the unbelievers, which go on for pages and, because the Qu'ran is so short, comprise a significant percentage of that fuckin book. Let's confront the stagnation of Islamic research in the 15th century due to recurrent fundamentalism that plagues us on a wide scale 6 centuries later.

Islam is about as misunderstood as a bee sting on a patient in anaphylactic shock. It is a religion of suppression, a religion of submission, a religion that restricts the fundamental desire to be free.

And yes, I think Adrian did tip over a little there. It is like the Hitler argument in the sense that you can't blame a man's beliefs (or especially others who share similar beleifs) for his own shortcomings. If an Atheist is bound to be responsible for his own actions, so is a Theist.

I don't let god be an excuse, you disbelievers certainly should not as well.

Yes you can blame to degrees that beliefs are to blame. Hate speech and fighting words are great examples of how the fundamentally intangible can cause incredible harm and violence. The man who preaches hate is held doubly accountable when he commits a crime - because while you cannot punish the idea, you can punish the man. But the hate still remains unless confronted and judged upon.

[Pippy]

With more hate?

As someone who read the holy Qu'ran and still clutches his head whenever Muslims talk about the "science" of the Qu'ran, submission to Allah and their behaviors is expected to be what your life is about.

I don't discount your knowledge of Islam, I read an English Quran as well, and agree that it was dry for a divine scripture. And yes, there is a lot of anger and room for hatred, but I am not trying to say that there arne't flaws with their beliefs. I cast scorn on anything Abrehemic, as those three brother religions have cause some trouble in history (and nowadays). My point is that you can't blame Islam or the Quran for this specific action that the man did, it isn't realistic. I will expound more.

Were the vigilant exhortations of the masses whipped up by their imams to behead the Danish cartoonist's misunderstood? How about the many people who died in the frenzy? Huh?

That is also a long inter-playing string of human choices, decisions and consequences. To blame the Quran or the entirety of the belief structure is disingenuous. I believe that it played a kind of a part in making possible the conceptions, and as a framework to make decisions in. Certainly though, there should be accountability to any person who chooses to do anything bad (against the law, violent, coercive of others) regardless of their excuses for whatever action. To blame the entire religion is to ignore the human reality of the situations, and fall into the same hole they are in. Hatred, division and disillusion.

Hey EvF. Good to hear from you.

I do not believe in Free Will

This might be a sidetrack, but I have to point out that it is funny to hear an agnostic/atheist person as yourself say that. Not that you don't likely have a strong foundation for your belief, but that it is a concept usually reserved for the other side. I would have to disagree. It is deemed by fate that we should have free will...

We might just plum think opposed to one another on this one. I think that beliefs are real, and are a factor in our decision making process. I do not however think they are "to blame" for crimes, or for honours. To blame something is to assign it some level of responsibility for an action. The belief someone holds can affect them, but not be held responsible. No matter how much I want it to, if I shoot someone, it is me and only me that did that. No matter how crazy I was at the time, in a religious sense. There is no way to show that the bible pulled the trigger, and in fact easy usually to show that it was my hand, for which I was responsible for at the time.

I do admit and agree that it is a factor. Did this person think they could kill someone, and for whatever reason it was justifiable? That is interesting, and valid, but not responsible.

I feel for people that have been tricked and coerced into doing bad things, but unfortunately the blame and punishment rest squarely on their shoulders. If not just for committing a crime, for failing our shared responsibility to ourselves and each other. The duty of making the right choices.

So I disagree, and would say that a person is the only thing that can be blamed, as only a person exhibits the ability to be responsible, and beliefs do not. Not until interpreted by a human, and then suddenly it is in our corner, and can be good, bad, or kinda mundane and boring.

Thanks,
-Pip

[Edwardo Piet]

Pip,

It is possible that we may in future even be surprised how much this is down to a matter of semantics perhaps.

I indeed think people should be help responsible for their actions, of course. When I say that I think "beliefs" are to blame I mean that I believe beliefs are entirely what drive a person and so if there is any negativity or scolding it should in frustration be directed at them, the beliefs, not the person - as in, not their nature. Nature is nature. And we are part of nature too, and it's completely and utterly pointless to blame nature IMO.

So you I see, I see it it as pointless to hate someone's character - their nature. We are who we are, and we can of course change ( or rather... we are changing all the time. Life is just an ongoing process), but I believe that our beliefs (which are part of us) are the part of us that drive us. So, to put it one way, 'they' control 'us' and not the other way around.

I believe everyone should of course be held responsible for their actions because that is obviously what is best for humanity... but I do not believe in "blaming" someone's own nature.... for example: I wouldn't agree with punishing someone unless more future good than bad came out of it.

EvF

[A897]

they're doing shit towards honor killing, cruel treatment of women, suicide bombing and hundreds of other issues! and all they're symapthies are with "peace" loving prophet by beheading the cartoonists!!

[Amphora]

And yes, I think Adrian did tip over a little there. It is like the Hitler argument in the sense that you can't blame a man's beliefs (or especially others who share similar beleifs) for his own shortcomings. If an Atheist is bound to be responsible for his own actions, so is a Theist.

What's funny is not only do I disagree with that but I personally believe the complete opposite. I do not believe in Free Will and I also ultimately do not (or at least always try not to) blame anybody for their character but only for their behaviour and actions (if that makes sense?). Beliefs are what drive people's behaviour, so I believe that beliefs are the only thing that you can (justly) blame. Just as this belief that I have that I am mentioning here (the belief I have that beliefs are the only thing that you can (justly) blame), if it were to cause me to live my life in ways that harmed others then it, this belief, is what is to blame... it is simply that it is dealt with by dealing with me who is the holder of the said belief.

EvF

In bold, make perfect sense, because this guy was compelled to do this act. I agree with you. Beliefs are what drive people's behaviour. To whichever belief that person holds, farfetched as some beliefs are, if this perpetrator believes what he believes, and thinking this all right in his eyes. He is very delusional.

In italics, actions speak louder than words!! But then the pen is mightier than the sword!!

[Edwardo Piet]

I'm glad we have common ground there Good post, kudos.

I agree with the metaphor that actions speak louder than words. I certainly do. I am always more unsure of the metaphor of the pen being mightier than the sword... perhaps you could give me an example?

EvF

[Amphora]

I'm glad we have common ground there Good post, kudos.

I agree with the metaphor that actions speak louder than words. I certainly do. I am always more unsure of the metaphor of the pen being mightier than the sword... perhaps you could give me an example?

EvF

(my underline)Sure I could give you an example: “Four hostile newspapers are more to be feared than a thousand bayonets.” from wiki

Heres more on the metaphor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pen_is_..._the_sword

Edit And also: The idiom 'the pen is mightier than the sword' means that words and communication are more powerful than wars and fighting. From UsingEnglish.com

[Autumnlicious]

@Pippy - Thanks for utterly disregarding what I wrote about blame. Read it again, you twat, before prattling about self-responsibility. Your response ticks me off.

@EvF - Swords have the wonderful ability to cut flesh, but ideas, formed and spoken, written or communicated, can control the hearts of the people. And whoever controls the hearts of the people, influences their actions.