How do we slay the dragon?

[Jenny A]

These are great suggestions, but what about on a more practical, individual level? What can I do? (Not being in a position of recognized "teacher" or "expert" on anything.)

I don't know. I have unconverted a few friends. But I think they were headed that way generally. In both cases, it happened because I was reading about the Bible: how the contextualists have dated it's various parts; the political motivations inherent in it; and the lack of historical corroboration; the new slant that what corroboration there is shows on the text. But I was talking about it as interesting information, not as here is why you should believe in this ancient book. I think this is why seminaries tend to cause atheism in some of their students. But to go at it this way you really do need to have an interest in and read about the Bible.

The same thing might be done with science. Get excited about evolution, and read up. Talk about parts you find fascinating.

---

This is just a thought, and I have no proof it works. But one of the annoyances of my life as an at home mom (abet one with a part time business) and well behaved, well read kids, is that Christian mothers assume that I am a really good Christan mom and perhaps even home-schooled the girls at some point. That we have almost every dinner as a family and that I cook those dinners adds to this perception. It startles them when I answer the question, "which church do you attend?" with, "we don't because we are atheists." But they don't shun us. I think just being obviously a reasonably good person and openly atheist is helpful.

[Confused Ape]

[Mudhammam]

Maybe religion is just one expression of the real dragon at work. What makes people fanatical about ideologies which have nothing to do with religion?

Good question. I'm inclined to think a general lack of self-respect, misinformation, credulity enhanced by an ignorance of scientific and humanistic thinking, among other things, leads to more fanaticism. Interestingly, those few things I suggested describe all of the major orthodox faiths--from Christianity to Communism.

[pocaracas]

I think porn is the best way... and the internet has helped a lot with that!

[Jenny A]

@ pocaracus [edited]

1) Yes some scientists are Christians, but the percentage is much, much, much smaller. And there are essentially no fundamentalist scientists.

2) I doubt anyone picks a new religion out of a comparative religion course. Certainly fewer than those who notice that one's they don't subscribe to are silly.

4) Many people are reluctant to let go of the church because of the support aspects. Having a ready alternative would be helpful to fence sitters.

No magic bullets, but what do what for nothing?

[pocaracas]

@ porcaracus

Who's that guy?

1) Yes some scientists are Christians, but the percentage is much, much, much smaller. And there are essentially no fundamentalist scientists.

Depends on how far you're willing to take the definition on scientist.... Some actually work for the creation museum.

2) I doubt anyone picks a new religion out of a comparative religion course. Certainly fewer than those who notice that one's they don't subscribe to are silly.

There's always someone...

4) Many people are reluctant to let go of the church because of the support aspects. Having a ready alternative would be helpful to fence sitters.

Agreed... But atheists are like cats and not easily herded...

No magic bullets, but what do what for nothing?

Just carry on...

[Ravenshire]

Lay people become more and more estranged from the technical expertise of its experts.

You can see this with the direction Apple has taken and Microsoft is starting to take. "Everything is so seamless, I don't even have to think to hook my computer to my fridge so it'll put a message on my TV and my phone that I need to buy milk." It was but a short time ago that you had to have actual knowledge of how a computer worked to be able to use one. Even more recently, you had to have some knowledge to be able to set up a computer network. With the technology available today, the below average intellects of the world can now set up a multi-computer home network and use their technology to get on-line and proclaim to the world how dumb they are.

"Slaying the dragon" under these circumstances would seem impossible. Like Jenny A, I think the only hope is in education. Along with her suggestions I would suggest that we raise the bar for education. Both at the primary and secondary levels. The "No Child Left Behind" act has become the "Every Child Will Be Dragged Through the System Whether They Deserve to Graduate or Not" act. Kids are routinely passed to the next level with failing grades but high self esteem. George Carlin spoke great wisdom when he said our children are being deprived of a great motivational and character building tool when we quit telling them "Ya lost, Johnny!"

I think there are four things that have to happen in our schools.

First: As I said previously raise the bar. Increase the minimums for passing to the next level. Also, require anyone who wants to teach to earn a teaching degree. If you want to home school, you better think ahead!

Second: Quit teaching that it's ok to be ignorant. Self esteem should be taught at home. It's not the school's job.

Third: Quit teaching to the lowest common denominator. Some kids just won't get it no matter what you do for them. Move these kids into classes where their constant lack of understanding isn't dragging the rest down with them. Yes, I understand that many kids wind up in a bad situation because of a lack of opportunity, not a lack of understanding or intelligence and that leads to my fourth point.

Fourth: Fully and properly fund education at the primary and secondary level. Teachers should never be using science books 10-20 years out of date yet it's a common occurrence in our public schools. An associates degree should be there for anyone who wants to, and is intellectually able to continue their education. A Bachelor's, Masters or even a Doctoral degree should not be out of financial reach of anyone capable of achieving one, nor should they create an untenable financial burden for the new graduate.

[ignoramus]

In America at least, you don't need a degree in science to teach science. Just a teaching qualification.
If America is 90% religious, how many science teachers actually believe what they are teaching.

Richard Dawkins spoke of doctor who was religious and believed the world was 6000 years old.
Would you want this doctor playing around inside your gizzards?

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Education, of women specifically. The education of girls tends to improve a region socially and economically 3 or 4 fold than simply educating boys, which is probably why most religions seek in inhibit the role and power of women in given societies. Perhaps why the Taliban are so insistent that girls not receive any education for example as it would be a threat to their indoctrination processes.

Also the free flow of information. For centuries the Christian clergy relies on their understanding of Latin and the ignorance of the laity towards the bible as a way of disseminating the message they wanted to hear. The advent of vernacular bibles allowed the information to flow, along with the inevitable questions and schisms. Multiply this 10 fold for today where the internet allows censorship to be easily bypassed at the click of a button.

Increased social mobility and economic independence tends to lead to less religious societies (the west vs third world countries in Africa and South America). It is not unreasonable to assume that religions have more of a foothold in poorer societies where there is more poverty and more desperation.

But 100% the education of girls, though it is doubtful that religion could ever be fully discarded.

[Confused Ape]