Fourth of July..

[Minimalist]

We beat them the same way the Vietcong beat us,

WE beat them because the French saved our butts.

And the right-wingers go nuts when that is said!

[Ravenshire]

I'd be much more patriotic without the PATRIOT act (among many other govt. failings).

[DeistPaladin]

WE beat them because the French saved our butts.

And the right-wingers go nuts when that is said!

Respectfully, Min, I disagree. Although the French involvement made a difference, there were other factors going against the British. After losing at the first battle with the British at New York, Washington figured out that he could only win by avoiding direct battles with the British forces and hitting them where they're not.

An empire can't stay where it isn't welcome. No matter how great their army, they're going to get bled to death.

[Minimalist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Chesapeake

The Battle of the Chesapeake, also known as the Battle of the Virginia Capes or simply the Battle of the Capes, was a crucial naval battle in the American War of Independence that took place near the mouth of Chesapeake Bay on 5 September 1781, between a British fleet led by Rear Admiral Sir Thomas Graves and a French fleet led by Rear Admiral Francois Joseph Paul, the Comte de Grasse. The battle was tactically inconclusive but strategically a major defeat for the British, since it prevented the Royal Navy from reinforcing or evacuating the blockaded forces of Lieutenant General Lord Cornwallis at Yorktown, Virginia. When the French were able to achieve temporary control of the sea lanes against the British, the result was the reinforcement of the Continental Army with siege artillery and French troops—all of which proved decisive in the Siege of Yorktown, effectively securing independence for the Thirteen Colonies.[2]

No French navy, no crushing of Cornwallis at Yorktown. No Yorktown = no collapse of Lord North's government. There were no major military actions to further things along. Yorktown was the final straw politically for the Brits and negotiations were begun in Paris. British defeat was agreed to in November, 1782 but the terms were contingent on Britain and France making peace as well. For essentially 2 years everyone sat around jerking off while the diplomats jerked off.

But without Yorktown, none of it happens.

[DeistPaladin]

But without Yorktown, none of it happens.

I'm not so sure. The war would have dragged on longer but the end result would, IMHO, likely have been the same. It's not because I'm being jingoistic, boasting about how "kick-ass" we were. It's because of how history seems to work every time it happens. An empire can't stay where it isn't welcome. It gets bled to death with an unsustainable occupation.

[Minimalist]

If the French had lost the Battle of Chesapeake it is a real question if they would have persevered in the war.

Had they not the British were still holding Savannah, Charleston, and Wilmington. Leaving Cornwallis on the loose in Virginia..or even evacuating his force for later service would have seriously altered the balance of power.

And while the British were war-weary so were the rebels. There is simply no way to judge what might have happened but in terms of what did happen the Battle of the Chesapeake was one of the most important battles in history.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Years gone, I once had a USian tourist ask me how we celebrated the 4th of July in Northern Ireland. When I told her that there were a few places she could go (Folk Park over in Omagh, being one), but that most people let the day pass without doing anything in particular about it, I honestly thought she was going to slap me.

Boru

[DeistPaladin]

Years gone, I once had a USian tourist ask me how we celebrated the 4th of July in Northern Ireland.

These are my fellow countrypersons who make me ...

[A Theist]

A happy 4th of July to my American friends.

Your revolution against us bankrupted the French, for which we shall always be thankful

You're quite welcome! We're thankful for the French revolution which followed and at its bloody conclusion gave the world Napolean Bonaparte, who in turn sold us better than 800,000 square miles of the Louisana Territory.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Years gone, I once had a USian tourist ask me how we celebrated the 4th of July in Northern Ireland.

These are my fellow countrypersons who make me ...

For what it's worth, I don't dislike USians. When they're at home, they've always struck me as warm, wonderful people, a utter delight to be around. When they travel, however, something seems to happen to them. I suspect it may be a frontal lobe issue.

Boru