Is “love” significant?

[XK9_Knight]

[if] emotions are temporary states, they do not have lasting meaning or value.

I think you could define love in other ways. For example, if something about someone inspires in you feelings of altruism, you could call that love, and that would be significant in that it has affected the lover's world view. In some cases, love can mean a complete abandonment of the sense of importance of the self in favor of the other. I've argued that Christianity has this advantage-- that it places something other than pleasure at the center of a person's world view. And when multiple people are defining their center around the same idea-- myth or not-- that establishes a special community. Atheism doesn't do this, though certainly there are many altruistic atheists, or those who share common goals.

Personally, I'd keep maybe half a dozen Christian values, and right at the top would be "love your neighbor as you love yourself." The goofy history, wrong science and fear mongering, I'd cut.

So love as an action –devoid of self-interest- is a meaningful endeavor? Hmm, yes. Good. I would completely agree if that’s what you’re getting at. Benny I think that comment just cut across the board; unless someone here would be inclined to disagree I think we’ve found some sort of consensus?

… Oh geez, do I want to go down this rabbit hole further and discuss why we agree, or whether humanity has intrinsic value? OnO
I think it best to leave that for another discussion.

XK9 - Knight, does your user name mean you used to be a dog but now you're a horse? :-)

If your asking if love is significant to get a feel for what we're like, we get a feel for what you might think atheists are like by your question and it's purpose.

I find it surprising that an intelligent person like yourself could still be religious without having felt the love of god.
I was a x-tian for the first part of my life and I never felt god's love, not once.

You think love is like an appetite and never fulfilled.
It's true, but that's because it can't be taken for granted and it must be maintained.
Good things are never easy.
That's just my view, not all other atheists.
We actually all only agree on one thing. :-)

Dog? No! …



The “Knight” part just sounds cool; honestly, you can call me Josh.

I do, however think that bolded section was rather apt. It’s a simple concept, but it’s taken for granted.

[Ravenshire]

For Benny’s sake, I would define ‘significant’ as having lasting meaning or value (worthy for it’s own sake).

Then no. Since emotions are temporary states, they do not have lasting meaning or value.

I've got to argue against this because the long term affects of emotions can easily outlive the emotions themselves. I have loved many people, some as friends, some as family, some as lovers. I would not be the person I am today without those experiences in love, even though the emotion (for most of them) ended long ago.

Yes, Love is significant. Of course, so is hate, pride, joy, sorrow, empathy anger, compassion, happiness, etc... All the things we feel help to shape us, even if we don't feel them any longer.

[bennyboy]

Then no. Since emotions are temporary states, they do not have lasting meaning or value.

I've got to argue against this because the long term affects of emotions can easily outlive the emotions themselves. I have loved many people, some as friends, some as family, some as lovers. I would not be the person I am today without those experiences in love, even though the emotion (for most of them) ended long ago.

Yes, Love is significant. Of course, so is hate, pride, joy, sorrow, empathy anger, compassion, happiness, etc... All the things we feel help to shape us, even if we don't feel them any longer.

Yes, but in this case, love isn't "worthy for its own sake." It is worthy for the long-term cascade of effects in which it participates.

Love is a motivator-- in the long run, it means only as much as the behaviors it influences. Therefore, if the behaviors it motivates are significant, then love is significant. Whether ANY behavior of any human is ultimately significant is an arbitrary philosophical position, unsupportable by logical assertions. Would, for example, the complete obliteration of all life on the world be "significant?" To us, yes. To the universe possibly not.

---

[if] emotions are temporary states, they do not have lasting meaning or value.

I think you could define love in other ways. For example, if something about someone inspires in you feelings of altruism, you could call that love, and that would be significant in that it has affected the lover's world view. In some cases, love can mean a complete abandonment of the sense of importance of the self in favor of the other. I've argued that Christianity has this advantage-- that it places something other than pleasure at the center of a person's world view. And when multiple people are defining their center around the same idea-- myth or not-- that establishes a special community. Atheism doesn't do this, though certainly there are many altruistic atheists, or those who share common goals.

Personally, I'd keep maybe half a dozen Christian values, and right at the top would be "love your neighbor as you love yourself." The goofy history, wrong science and fear mongering, I'd cut.

So love as an action –devoid of self-interest- is a meaningful endeavor? Hmm, yes. Good. I would completely agree if that’s what you’re getting at. Benny I think that comment just cut across the board; unless someone here would be inclined to disagree I think we’ve found some sort of consensus?

I wouldn't define love as any particular kind of action or non-action. I'd define it as a feeling which rewrites selfish values with altruistic ones. It's a trivial difference, but I wouldn't want to get away from the idea of love as an emotion.

[vorlon13]

I fell in love with 'Brian' 25 years ago shortly before he died of AIDS.

If I EVER have access to a time machine, I WILL totally FUCK the timeline to get him back.


And that is why I should never be allowed near a time machine, and also, an illustration of the power of love. Even after 25 years and a GODDAMN intervening death.

God wants me to believe in Him, my demands are simple, bring Brian back.

[XK9_Knight]

I think from what I'm gathering from all this is, "because it is valuable to me it is significant.” Would that be an accurate summation of what’s been said, or would that be an oversimplification?

[Ravenshire]

I think from what I'm gathering from all this is, "because it is valuable to me it is significant.” Would that be an accurate summation of what’s been said, or would that be an oversimplification?

Who else is an emotion going to be significant to?!? If the love (or hate, joy or grief, happiness of sadness) I feel isn't significant to me, why would it be for anyone else?

[The Grand Nudger]

"Because it's valuable/significant to me" is just the lowest common denominator. If it weren't significant for any other reason (and there's no shortage of other reasons) then it would be significant for that reason, at a minimum. So, yeah - that's probably oversimplification.

[vorlon13]

I think from what I'm gathering from all this is, "because it is valuable to me it is significant.” Would that be an accurate summation of what’s been said, or would that be an oversimplification?

In regard to Brian, never had a moment of joy, was never intimate, never had a happy time alone with him, never knew him in good health, and when the fact of his impending mortality seared me like nothing else ever had, I imploded to the extent I wasn't sure I'd ever come back from or ever want to.

I couldn't even describe my experience with Brian as 'love' for many years because what I did experience was so alien compared to what the rest of the planet seems to describe love as that I could not make the connection.

Despite being in 12 Steppers, I consented to 18 months of anti-depressants at the behest of my physician, he was concerned about my deterioration.

I read a criticism of a character (I believe in a Vonnegut novel) who was described as climbing up his own asshole and dying there. It's as good a description as any.

At no time was I suicidal, but for many months I was indifferent about living.

I'd suggest anyone with less than 10 years sobriety in a 12 Stepper program to avoid doing what I did.

[bennyboy]

I think from what I'm gathering from all this is, "because it is valuable to me it is significant.” Would that be an accurate summation of what’s been said, or would that be an oversimplification?

It's an oversimplification. It should be "because it feels valuable to people including me, I take it as significant."

[XK9_Knight]

I think from what I'm gathering from all this is, "because it is valuable to me it is significant.” Would that be an accurate summation of what’s been said, or would that be an oversimplification?

It's an oversimplification. It should be "because it feels valuable to people including me, I take it as significant."

Hmm, very astute. I think that's much better.