Religious Tolerance

[JesusHChrist]

I think people's beliefs should be tolerated as long as they don't interfere in government or schools, and don't break the law. All governance should be strictly secular - no bishops in the Lords for example, and no state funding for faith schools.

The other issue is the persecution of women and minorities. Everytime someone says that gay people are evil or will go to hell, some moron somewhere will be listening and think it's OK to find a faggot and beat the shit out of him. If they don't like gays they should shut up about it.

Respect religion? No way.

For The Devil, you sure seem like a reasonable fellow.

As for tolerance of religion, just what does "tolerance" mean exactly? People being free to believe whatever horseshit they want? Sure. Whatever. People believe all sorts of nutty things. Always have. Always will.

Tolerant as in being involved in any way whatsoever with the legal or political system? No. I'll be mighty fucking intolerant of that.

Tolerant as in not challenging nutty ideas? Nope. Ideas don't need protection and should stand or fall on their intellectual merits without hiding behind the out-of-reach veil of "intolerance".

Religion, like any other human endeavor, such as politics, economics, or science, should be subject to the same scrutiny and run the same risk of public mockery for promoting idiocy. No other area gets a pass, why should mythological bullshit?

Given the potentially dangerous and cancerous nature of religious belief (see modern day middle east for one example), if anything, religion should be marginalized into the same category as any other superstitious nonsense. Creating the petri dish where it can flourish and gain sustenance seems to present the greatest risk.

[ComradeMeow]

I do not tolerate religion, it is the most dumbest thing I have ever heard of. I do not tolerate violence, abuse, fear mongering, hatred and the way it corrupts the religious.
I have known of so few Christians whose behavior could be called ethical or "christ like". Religions like Christianity encourage hatred amongst it's followers or hypocrisy. The more truly religious you are the more horrible of a person you become but it all depends on the religion as well.

To tolerate a religion is to sit back and let it destroy all which is sacred to a human being. I show kindness where kindness is due and hatred where hatred is due. I am very LaVeyan in this way that is where it ends.

[Mister Agenda]

I'd like a citation on that.

Doubt you'll get one though.

Well, he said 'secular governments' which is virtually all of them, even if run almost entirely by theists, since there were only a handful of theocracies in the 20th century. Of course things were very bloody before theocracies became so rare, but we didn't have machine guns and atom bombs back then.

Correction: I should count totalitarian communist states among those which weren't secular, unlike the officially secular government of the USA.

[Thumpalumpacus]

An anecdote:

A few years ago, I was in my soon-to-be shop getting things ready; building furniture; organizing, etc. A woman whom I had never seen before walked in through the open door, and we began to chat. Abruptly, after about five minutes, she asked if she could pray for my shop, and I said, "why not?" I figured she'd say a few words, and we could get on with our chat. She grabbed my hand so tightly, my fingers crunched. I thought, "well, this should be fun," and she got on with a bunch of chanting and what I could only assume was speaking in "tongues". After about seven minutes, she finally let go of my throbbing hand, and said, "amen". Then, she said a nice goodbye, and left.

The next time she came back, she brought a friend, and the two of them repeated the behavior; then another couple of friends came along. It was like they were trying to turn my shop into a church. They were just taking over.

After a couple of months of this happening, like, six or seven times, I finally spoke up. I said very nicely, "I'm sorry; I'm a non-believer and I have a lot of work to do." The original lady lost her shit, decided I needed a sermon the caliber of which has only otherwise been witnessed on "the Mount". I let her go on for ten minutes or so, all of her friends staring at her, rapt, and then I jumped in and said, "really, folks. I have a lot of work to do. Would you like to do a craft?" They left with the original lady in a huff of, "well. We'll just go somewhere else, where we are tolerated."

About two weeks ago, a group of young Christians came to the nature preserve (they had Bible-camp shirts on). After I went over the rules at the gate with them, took their money, and printed their permit, a young lady in the back seat of the truck leaned forward and asked me if I was going to be at the fee booth at five-thirty.

"Why?" I asked.

"Because we'd like to pray for you."

I have a debilitating bone disorder in my hip which imparts a noticeable limp, and I assume it was that limp which aroused their sentiment, but wanted no part of the praying.

"Well," I answered, "I'm going to be busy preparing my bank deposit, and then cleaning the park and getting ready to close."

"That's okay, we'll come up here and have a little circle for you."

"I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm not a believer. You're of course welcome to pray for whom you wish, but I won't be taking part. I wouldn't insult your faith by pretending to be what I'm not. And I have business to attend to at that time."

She had a pretty downcast look on her face as they pulled away from the booth, and I couldn't help but think that the prayer was really for themselves, rather than me.

[jesus_wept]

I'm paraphrasing someone's quote here but religions burnt, mutilated, tortured, killed and exiled non believers for thousands of years and now, now we have them on the back foot with their insanity, they want us to be tolerant? Fuck them, fuck them all.

[tjakey]

The most deaths caused in the last 100 years have been from the spread and control of secular governments.

What's the sense in killing for the government of a nation simply because you were born in that nation? Is national pride worth the cost of a hundreds of millions of lives?

The thread was about tolerating religion and the actions of some believers / fanatics / fundamentalists. But you will get no argument from me if you are suggesting that the nation / state has outlived its usefulness in the scheme of human social evolution. National boarders are arbitrary lines drawn by those staking out the reach of their power, and usually cause more problems than they solve.

[Losty]

So what do you suggest instead? Global anarchy?

[Dystopia]

The most deaths caused in the last 100 years have been from the spread and control of secular governments.

What's the sense in killing for the government of a nation simply because you were born in that nation? Is national pride worth the cost of a hundreds of millions of lives?

The thread was about tolerating religion and the actions of some believers / fanatics / fundamentalists. But you will get no argument from me if you are suggesting that the nation / state has outlived its usefulness in the scheme of human social evolution. National boarders are arbitrary lines drawn by those staking out the reach of their power, and usually cause more problems than they solve.

You must be another libertarian anti-government fundie who proposes a children's dream but has no ideas or measures on how to implement it - How convenient

Not that I don't like libertarianism at all, but I certainly won't label myself as one, nor as a conservative or liberal - I don't know what I am.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I don't 'tolerate' the religious beliefs of people. Generally speaking, I'm happily indifferent to them.

To paraphrase Jefferson ('paraphrase', because I don't recall the exact wording): It makes no difference to me whether my neighbour worships one god or many gods or no gods. It neither robs my purse nor breaks my leg.

Polaris is dead right when saying that more than 99% of believers' beliefs don't harm other people. These are the religionists to whom I am indifferent. The trouble comes from the <1% who want science textbooks amended with idiotic notions, who think there's a 'war' on Christmas, and who think that because they cannot do whatever the hell they want, whenever the hell they want, that their religious freedom is somehow being trampled. Sadly for religionists, it is this minority that tend to give ALL theists the reputation of being irritating spoiled brats (and I'll be the first to admit that they aren't - most of the believers of my acquaintance are perfectly lovely people). This also happens to be the group to whom I am NOT indifferent, but openly and consistently hostile. I don't anticipate a change.

Boru

[Jackalope]

Believe what you want. I believe in keeping my beliefs to myself in public, and will continue to do so as long as others give me the same respect. You bring it into the public space, you're opening yourself up for criticism - just as I would be.

If I'm in your house, I'll be silent and respectful if you wish to observe some religious practice or tradition (such as saying grace before a meal). No, I will not lead the prayer, that would be inappropriate.

If I'm in your place of worship, say for a wedding or memorial service, you bet I'll be silent and respectful - though it's unlikely I'll actually *be* in such a situation.

I understand that many religious people feel it's their duty to have their beliefs have the force of law - I'll oppose that as well in the marketplace of ideas. You want to teach my kid creationism as science, or bring your religion into public schools in any context other than comparative religion? No.

You come to my door to proselytize, I'll say no thank you and be polite right up until the point where you decline to remove yourself from my porch - and I'd never dream of knocking on your door to tell you that you aren't going to burn in hell.

(I don't mean you specifically, unless of course you are the kind of Christian who does such things.)