Cain and Abel: Explanation Please. Pretty Pretty Please!

[StealthySkeptic]

So what is the moral lesson of Cain and Abel?

Cain and Abel both make sacrifices to god. Abel is a hunter and brings meat. . . yum meat. Cain is a farmer and brings vegetables and grain. . . yum, yum, bread. But god is finds favor only in meat. God apparently demands blood. WHY?

This is like a father looking at the little hand made clay gifts of two sons and throwing bouquets at one and rejecting the other. What kind of good father would do that?

Next Cain kills Abel. Not good. I get that. You don't get to kill your brother because daddy loves him best. But why does Cain get a pass with just exile and a you can't kill me card? Later in the OT the penalty for murder, let alone fratricide, is death. Why doesn't Cain have to pay that price?

It seems to me that this is a tale about the arbitrariness of fate, not an all loving god. Anyone care to explain it differently?

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No Christian explanation? Really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2U8yfKM9nY

This is a better myth than Cain and Abel, in my opinion.

[FifthElement]

Seriously ?

[Huggy Bear]

*sigh* Just read the text. Nowhere does it say that Eve slept with the serpent. It does say in all translations that Eve's descendants (or seed if you must) and the serpent's will be at odds. If Eve and the serpent produced Cain (not Biblical) than Eve and the Serpent's seed would be the same. Think!

Eve and the serpents seed would not be the same because women do not have seed, the seed comes from the man. This is a prophecy, in other words God gave the woman a seed which was Jesus Christ.

The NRSV and other versions were also translated from the original Hebrew. But the KJ is hardly the latest or the greatest and was translated with a heavy bias--not to mention it's use of archaic English terms such as seed for descendants and knew instead of sex, etc. Read a Jewish translation or the NRSV--also both from Hebrew.

The NRSV has added 18 extra books to the Bible (even the Catholic version hasn't gone that crazy), I think its disqualified on that alone.

As to angels read the whole section, then tell me who the Nephilim are. I don't give a damn whether god redeems them.

There are effectively two views regarding the identity of the nephilim, which follow on from alternative views about the identity of the sons of God (Bənê hāʼĕlōhîm):

Offspring of Seth: The Qumran (Dead Sea Scroll) fragment 4Q417 (4QInstruction) contains the earliest known reference to the phrase "children of Seth", stating that God has condemned them for their rebellion. Other early references to the offspring of Seth rebelling from God and mingling with the daughters of Cain, are found in rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, Augustine of Hippo, Julius Africanus, and the Letters attributed to St. Clement. It is also the view expressed in the modern canonical Amharic Ethiopian Orthodox Bible.

Offspring of angels: A number of early sources refer to the "sons of heaven" as angels. The earliest such references seem to be in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Greek, and Aramaic Enochic literature, and in certain Ge'ez manuscripts of 1 Enoch (mss A–Q) and Jubilees used by western scholars in modern editions of the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha. Some Christian apologists, such as Tertullian and especially Lactantius, shared this opinion. The earliest statement in a secondary commentary explicitly interpreting this to mean that angelic beings mated with humans can be traced to the rabbinical Targum Pseudo-Jonathan and it has since become especially commonplace in modern-day Christian commentaries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

Take your pick, but they both go back to antiquity. However, unless you follow the orthodox standard, it's angels not the sons of Seth.

"Other early references to the offspring of Seth rebelling from God and mingling with the daughters of Cain"

Haven't I been saying this whole time that the "sons of God" were the descendants of Adam? the "offspring of Seth" would be Adams descendants.

Cain's descendants are all Adam's descendants because Cain is Adam's son. Cain are Seth are both Adam's sons as was the childless Abel. Adam also had other sons and daughters. Genesis 5:4. Chapter 4 lists Cain's descendants and Chapter 5 lists Seth's. Neither lists the descendants of Adam's other sons and daughters.

The Bible makes a clear distinction between the "sons of God" and "daughters of man". Your own evidence says that the "sons of God" were the children of Seth. If the Blood line of Cain and Seth were the same, Why would God be angry at them mixing?

[Minimalist]

You are way out of your league with Egyptology, hugster. Stick to your stupid fucking bible.

[Jenny A]

@ Huggy.

I don't really care all that much whether Cain is the son of Adam or the Serpent doctrinally because it's all fiction. But you are really bending the text to hell and gone to get where you are going with the Cain son of the serpent idea.

Using the KJ just for you:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Genesis 3:4-7 Notice that it is eating the fruit and not sex (sex is not mentioned that causes Adam and Eve to know they are naked.

[quot]And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.[/quote]Genesis 3:14-15
Notice that God talks about eh serpent's seed and Eve's seed (yes Eve's seed sorry if you don't think Eve has seed but god says she does). So Eve's descendants are different and people and snakes don't get along.

[quot]And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.[/quote] Genesis 4:1-2 So you see Eve didn't conceive until Adam slept with her and she attributed the baby to God.

Nowhere is there any suggestion that the serpent had sex with Eve, only Adam did that.

And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Genesis 4:25 Notice that she refers to her children as her "seed". Notice also that the language concerning Seth is almost identical to that regarding Cain. She got him by sleeping with Adam and the help of the Lord, just like she got Cain. So Cain and Seth are full brothers. Any other conclusion is contrary to Genesis.

[Huggy Bear]

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@ Huggy.

I don't really care all that much whether Cain is the son of Adam or the Serpent doctrinally because it's all fiction. But you are really bending the text to hell and gone to get where you are going with the Cain son of the serpent idea.

Using the KJ just for you:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Genesis 3:4-7 Notice that it is eating the fruit and not sex (sex is not mentioned that causes Adam and Eve to know they are naked.

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Genesis 3:14-15
Notice that God talks about eh serpent's seed and Eve's seed (yes Eve's seed sorry if you don't think Eve has seed but god says she does). So Eve's descendants are different and people and snakes don't get along.

And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Genesis 4:1-2 So you see Eve didn't conceive until Adam slept with her and she attributed the baby to God.

Nowhere is there any suggestion that the serpent had sex with Eve, only Adam did that.

And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Genesis 4:25 Notice that she refers to her children as her "seed". Notice also that the language concerning Seth is almost identical to that regarding Cain. She got him by sleeping with Adam and the help of the Lord, just like she got Cain. So Cain and Seth are full brothers. Any other conclusion is contrary to Genesis.

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I find it a little ironic that your version of the story is angels coming down and having sex with humans, while I'm saying that it was the Descendants of Adam, yet my version is the insane one.

Obviously whatever happened had something to do with genetics because Giants were produced, where did these giants come from? We determined by your own evidence that is was not angels, so that leave only one place you can go.

God does not spell out everything plainly, take this scripture for example.

John 11
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Or this one.

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

But you can't find anywhere in the Bible where any one was baptized in the name of the "Father, Son and Holy Ghost", they all baptized in the name of the "Jesus Christ"

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Which means that Jesus Christ IS the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. In other words Jesus was the God of the Old Testament, which is why he stated that he is the Alpha and Omega. But yet the majority of churches baptize in the name of the "Father Son and Holy Ghost" not realizing they are doing it wrong.

Which brings us back to the garden of Eden.
The reason it is written in this manner instead of coming out and explaining it in plain language, is because it is also using the story as a foreshadowing of the crucifixion of Jesus. In Eden we have the Tree of Life and the Tree of Good and Evil, and when Adam and Eve fell, God expelled them from Eden "lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:".

Genesis 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

As we see here, God placed an Angel to block the way to the tree of life.

This punishment was only to last for a certain period of time until the birth of Jesus Christ.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Not only is Jesus the way back to eternal life, he IS the Tree of Life. Does not the Bible refer the the Crucifix as a tree?

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

So therefore Jesus dying on the "tree" grants us eternal life, making him the Tree of Life. The picture is not complete however because there was also the Tree of Good and Evil, Which brings us to Judas who being a hypocrite (both good and evil) also hung himself from a tree.

Now do you see the whole picture?

If the Bible came out plainly and told you it was a sexual act, it breaks the whole foreshadowing of the crucifixion.

Everyone is not able to see it that way, which is why "revelation" is required, then your eyes are opened to see things everyone else misses.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

According to the Bible Eden was a town in the Middle East. Don't forget that the garden of Eden was just down the road from Assyria, Arabia, Ethiopia, and Persia.

[Brakeman]

So whatever happened to Eden's magic trees? Why haven't we found the fossils?

Did a sinful borer beetle or a demon woodpecker kill them?

[Jenny A]

<snip>
Genesis 3:4-7 Notice that it is eating the fruit and not sex (sex is not mentioned that causes Adam and Eve to know they are naked.

Genesis 3:14-15
Notice that God talks about eh serpent's seed and Eve's seed (yes Eve's seed sorry if you don't think Eve has seed but god says she does). So Eve's descendants are different and people and snakes don't get along.

Genesis 4:1-2 So you see Eve didn't conceive until Adam slept with her and she attributed the baby to God.

Nowhere is there any suggestion that the serpent had sex with Eve, only Adam did that.

Genesis 4:25 Notice that she refers to her children as her "seed". Notice also that the language concerning Seth is almost identical to that regarding Cain. She got him by sleeping with Adam and the help of the Lord, just like she got Cain. So Cain and Seth are full brothers. Any other conclusion is contrary to Genesis.

I find it a little ironic that your version of the story is angels coming down and having sex with humans, while I'm saying that it was the Descendants of Adam, yet my version is the insane one.

Obviously whatever happened had something to do with genetics because Giants were produced, where did these giants come from? We determined by your own evidence that is was not angels, so that leave only one place you can go.

The giants? From sleeping with angels obviously. But if, as you say, Cain's descendants sleeping with Seth's descendants were the cause, then either Seth or Cain would have had to have been taller than those giants of old--it really is simple genetics.

God does not spell out everything plainly, take this scripture for example.

---

John 11
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Or this one.

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

But you can't find anywhere in the Bible where any one was baptized in the name of the "Father, Son and Holy Ghost", they all baptized in the name of the "Jesus Christ"

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Which means that Jesus Christ IS the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. In other words Jesus was the God of the Old Testament, which is why he stated that he is the Alpha and Omega. But yet the majority of churches baptize in the name of the "Father Son and Holy Ghost" not realizing they are doing it wrong.

---

[Huggy Bear]

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I find it a little ironic that your version of the story is angels coming down and having sex with humans, while I'm saying that it was the Descendants of Adam, yet my version is the insane one.

Obviously whatever happened had something to do with genetics because Giants were produced, where did these giants come from? We determined by your own evidence that is was not angels, so that leave only one place you can go.

---

The giants? From sleeping with angels obviously. But if, as you say, Cain's descendants sleeping with Seth's descendants were the cause, then either Seth or Cain would have had to have been taller than those giants of old--it really is simple genetics.

Not necessarily, as I have stated, hybridization occurred between the human seed and the serpent seed, Cain didn't necessarily have to be a giant in order for his descendants to be giants.

If we look at the Liger for example, which is produced by crossbreeding a male lion with a female tiger, they produce gigantic offspring known as the Liger.

the typical lion weighs around 550 lbs while the Liger weighs 900.

Sorry: not willing to consider the New Testament when interpreting the Old Testament's meaning.

I didn't realize we were in the Judaism forum.

Since we are in the christian forum, then yes you do have to consider the whole Bible since it is the final (and should be the only) authority when it comes to doctrine in the church.

The Old and New Testaments run in direct continuity with each other, and in case you haven't figured it out, the whole Bible is about Jesus Christ, Which is why he stated:

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

I could explain many of the stories in the Old Testament, and show you in what way relate to Jesus, but I feel it would be a huge waste of time, and I've already covered this in other threads.

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Which brings us back to the garden of Eden.
The reason it is written in this manner instead of coming out and explaining it in plain language, is because it is also using the story as a foreshadowing of the crucifixion of Jesus. In Eden we have the Tree of Life and the Tree of Good and Evil, and when Adam and Eve fell, God expelled them from Eden "lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:".
As we see here, God placed an Angel to block the way to the tree of life.

This punishment was only to last for a certain period of time until the birth of Jesus Christ.

Not only is Jesus the way back to eternal life, he IS the Tree of Life. Does not the Bible refer the the Crucifix as a tree?


So therefore Jesus dying on the "tree" grants us eternal life, making him the Tree of Life. The picture is not complete however because there was also the Tree of Good and Evil, Which brings us to Judas who being a hypocrite (both good and evil) also hung himself from a tree.

Now do you see the whole picture?

If the Bible came out plainly and told you it was a sexual act, it breaks the whole foreshadowing of the crucifixion.

Everyone is not able to see it that way, which is why "revelation" is required, then your eyes are opened to see things everyone else misses.

---

Ah we aren't told so people won't know too soon. Or in other words hogwash. But it does explain why I disagree so strongly with you about what the text of Genesis actually says. You are supposing that the New Testament can rewrite it. It can't. It says what is says.

Not at all, I'm saying the New Testament is confirming the same thing as the Old Testament, you need both the get the complete picture. For example, did you know that the life of Joseph in the Old Testament parallels the life of Jesus exactly?