Drugs: A moral decision, a matter of choice, or a national health risk?

[MusicLovingAtheist]

I think that to a degree, there has to be punishment as a deterrent for some things. If someone committed a crime and you sent them on a retreat, everyone would commit crimes. So that may be the purpose for deterring people from committing crimes.

I don't know - the simple fact that we have prisons bursting at the seams with drug users suggests to me that in general, illegality is a poor deterrent.

That is a problem.

[Minimalist]

My personal reason for being against legalization of drugs is because I don't want to live in a world with junkies. Imagine how bad poor neighborhoods are now. Now imagine them with everyone out of their mind on drugs. How scary would it be if we lived in a world with violent psychotic people with impaired cognitive ability?

So, in order and by color:

You are already living in a word with junkies. After 40+ years of this drug war shit it should be patently obvious that it creates junkies and does not prevent them.

You know, once you legalize this shit and remove the profit incentive for the smugglers the reverse may happen. The druggies are fine once they are doped up. The gunfire comes from the turf wars by the sellers not the users.

But only for "drugs" which the government has determined are illegal, eh? What about alcohol and prescription drugs? Do the negative impacts of those not count because Pfizer makes hefty campaign "contributions" (a/k/a bribes)?

You're coming across as very naive. In addition to the above you are failing to factor in the increase in police intrusion and the decimation of our civil rights for this so-called "drug war" which is a total flop in any case. Read through the "Fucking Cops" thread for example after example of what has really happened in this country.

[MusicLovingAtheist]

My personal reason for being against legalization of drugs is because I don't want to live in a world with junkies. Imagine how bad poor neighborhoods are now. Now imagine them with everyone out of their mind on drugs. How scary would it be if we lived in a world with violent psychotic people with impaired cognitive ability?

So, in order and by color:

You are already living in a word with junkies. After 40+ years of this drug war shit it should be patently obvious that it creates junkies and does not prevent them.

You know, once you legalize this shit and remove the profit incentive for the smugglers the reverse may happen. The druggies are fine once they are doped up. The gunfire comes from the turf wars by the sellers not the users.

But only for "drugs" which the government has determined are illegal, eh? What about alcohol and prescription drugs? Do the negative impacts of those not count because Pfizer makes hefty campaign "contributions" (a/k/a bribes)?

You're coming across as very naive. In addition to the above you are failing to factor in the increase in police intrusion and the decimation of our civil rights for this so-called "drug war" which is a total flop in any case. Read through the "Fucking Cops" thread for example after example of what has really happened in this country.

Read my reply in "fucking cops". Poor neighborhoods would be more susceptible to drug use. That's because the black market is strengthened by the criminalization of drugs. It's an easy way for poor people to make easy money. It really rubs me the wrong way when you say "you're coming across as very naive". I voiced my opinion on "police intrusion" in your "fucking police" thread. Go look at it.

As a matter of fact I am not living in a world with junkies. I live in an affluent neighborhood where that shit isn't a problem. This is one of the reasons I hate poor neighborhoods.

You may or may not be right on the part about violence coming from turf wars instead of drug addicts. I know that turf wars are the cause of violence, but I also think that drug addiction can lead to violence too. Look at alcohol addiction. That is a classic case of drug related violence. That is the most commonly abused drug. Perhaps if we legalized drugs there would be far more violence related to other drug abuse.

We tried to prohibit alcohol. Everyone knows that. There are consequences for the legalization of alcohol. It's not a hard drug. You can find problems with any facet of society. Just because the cause of the problems is criminalizing drugs doesn't mean the solution is making them legal.

[Minimalist]

. I voiced my opinion on "police intrusion" in your "fucking police" thread. Go look at it.

I did. I wasn't impressed. There are far too many cops who think that badge is a license to kill. They are out of control.

And drug laws are a primary reason for it.

[MusicLovingAtheist]

. I voiced my opinion on "police intrusion" in your "fucking police" thread. Go look at it.

I did. I wasn't impressed. There are far too many cops who think that badge is a license to kill. They are out of control.

And drug laws are a primary reason for it.

You had me up until "drug laws are the primary reason for it". Now look at the rest of my last reply I made to you in this thread.

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These fucking people who just look at one part of your argument, tell you they disagree with it, then don't respond to any of the other points you made piss me off. If what you're basically saying is fuck me, you don't want to look at what I have to say, then fuck you too. Don't even argue if you're just going to ignore what other people have to say. You're really bad at arguing.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's an easy way for poor people to make easy money.

That's often said - but it's not actually true. The pay is shit, there's no room for advancement, there are no benefits, the competition is fierce and may shoot at you, and on top of all of that you have the cops to deal with (also, likely, shooting at you). That's why you don't see retired drug dealers lounging on beach chairs at the Don Cesar with their mounds and mounds of cash. They live at home with their mothers.

It's a damned hard way to make a rough non-living. If you actually think it's an easy profession fueled by easy money - give it a try. If it were legal, it might be a -decent- living (check the margins on dro where it's been recently legalized - and check the cost of operations) - but It wouldn't be any easier than making a living growing cotton.

Your affluent neighborhood probably has what amounts to an entire pharmacy flowing into the sewers daily. Junkies by any other name. The amount of drugs present and consumed in -any area- is directly related to the inhabitants ability to afford them. To you, the crackheads and meth addicts are junkies - but the prescription pill poppers are what? Productive members of society not in any way engaging in the exact same behaviors? If the residents of slums could afford those pills........

[Anomalocaris]

Drugs: A moral decision, a matter of choice, or a national health risk?


All three. They are not mutually exclusive.

[MusicLovingAtheist]

Drugs: A moral decision, a matter of choice, or a national health risk?


All three. They are not mutually exclusive.

Fuck. Read the OP. That was not meant to be an independent question. It ties in with the OP.

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It's an easy way for poor people to make easy money.

That's often said - but it's not actually true. The pay is shit, there's no room for advancement, there are no benefits, the competition is fierce and may shoot at you, and on top of all of that you have the cops to deal with (also, likely, shooting at you). That's why you don't see retired drug dealers lounging on beach chairs at the Don Cesar with their mounds and mounds of cash. They live at home with their mothers.

It's a damned hard way to make a rough non-living. If you actually think it's an easy profession fueled by easy money - give it a try. If it were legal, it might be a -decent- living (check the margins on dro where it's been recently legalized - and check the cost of operations) - but It wouldn't be any easier than making a living growing cotton.

Your affluent neighborhood probably has what amounts to an entire pharmacy flowing into the sewers daily. Junkies by any other name. The amount of drugs present and consumed in -any area- is directly related to the inhabitants ability to afford them. To you, the crackheads and meth addicts are junkies - but the prescription pill poppers are what? Productive members of society not in any way engaging in the exact same behaviors? If the residents of slums could afford those pills........

So maybe it isn't a good way to get payed. It's obviously a hard way of life. That's all you ever hear rappers bitching about is their hard life selling drugs (I fucking hate rappers btw).

It may not be an easy living, but poor neighborhoods are more violent for a reason. People are desperate and drug selling is one way they can make money without actually getting employed.

Perhaps my neighborhood does have drug users. Someone down the street got busted for selling marijuana. I don't know the difference between the effect of using pills and using meth.

[The Grand Nudger]

Those people -are- employed (and working harder for less pay than your average 9-5'er)........they aren't shirking anything, and approaching the entire subject (and all participants thereof) with such language (and the attendant philosophy) is unlikely to produce any amenable solution. The "effect" is largely down to where one finds oneself with the law - and how much money is left in ones pocket. The pills are more expensive but probably wont land you in jail. The meth is cheaper and probably will. One might consider that a "value-added" aspect of prescription drug abuse (thereby justifying -some- increase in price). On the other hand, the pills have quality standards attached - so there's that as well. All in all, it's a superior product consumed by a higher echelon of society. The difference between a Bickers Bar and a Snickers Bar.

[MusicLovingAtheist]

Those people -are- employed........they aren't shirking anything, and approaching the entire subject (and all participants thereof) with such language (and the attendant philosophy) is unlikely to produce any amenable solution.

You've made an interesting point. If you mean "approaching the entire subject with such language is unlikely to produce any solution" is a reasonable one. I don't think hatred of rappers is going to change anything.

I think the drug dealers are a bigger problem than the drug users. They're the ones making the drugs available. That's one of the reasons I really dislike rappers. They seem to glorify the hard lifestyle of selling drugs to make a living. Beside the fact that it's just a slick way of selling their rap music. Rap music is another easy way that poor people can get rich. That comment was more geared towards my distaste for the music. I know a some rap artists are opposed to the drug dealing lifestyle like the wu tang clan and their song "c.r.e.a.m." (cash rules everything around me). I like the wu tang clan. The overwhelming majority of rappers just glamorize the drug dealing lifestyle though, like 50 cent and all those other pretty boy goons you see on the market today.

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Those people -are- employed (and working harder for less pay than your average 9-5'er)........they aren't shirking anything, and approaching the entire subject (and all participants thereof) with such language (and the attendant philosophy) is unlikely to produce any amenable solution. The "effect" is largely down to where one finds oneself with the law - and how much money is left in ones pocket. The pills are more expensive but probably wont land you in jail. The meth is cheaper and probably will. One might consider that a "value-added" aspect of prescription drug abuse (thereby justifying -some- increase in price). On the other hand, the pills have quality standards attached - so there's that as well. All in all, it's a superior product consumed by a higher echelon of society. The difference between a Bickers Bar and a Snickers Bar.

I don't know the effects of prescription drugs. I have much less of a problem with prescription drug users than I do black market drug dealers. Drug dealers are dangerous, violent people. I am concerned for the health of the people who abuse any drug.