Consciousness: Is it seperate from the human body?

[Simon Moon]

Lately I've been fascinated with the idea of consciousness. I've been reading a bit on quantum physics, and have come to the idea that the conscious state of mind is completely seperate from the brain.

All evidence points to the mind and consciousness being an emergent property of the physical brain.

If you can provide demonstrable evidence that consciousness can exist absent a physical brain, lets have it.

In other words:

1) I feel as though I am not my body. For instance, if I cut my own hand off, my hand is no longer me, I'm still in the larger portion of my own body (of course I know that's mainly because my brain is still communicating with the rest of my body).

Your consciousness is not located in your hand. It is located in your physical brain.

People can suffer brain injuries and have their personalities completely reset.

Mind altering drugs can change a persons perceptions and personality by altering brain chemistry.

These and other facts point directly to your consciousness being an emergent property of the brain, not something that is separate from the brain.

2) It takes the brain roughly 80 milliseconds to process new stimulus, including getting that information to the brain via the nervous system. Which introduces the idea that time may not exist if it is all according to how fast the brain can process whats going on.

So, the brain takes a while to process stimuli. This is perfectly explainable through how the brain works. No need at all to speculate that it may be because time doesn't exist.

The human brain is really kluged together, with newer evolved parts stuck on, and in many times in conflict with, older evolved parts. It is no wonder it has some issues processing information.

3) Finally, there are all types of optical, tactile and auditory illusions that can play tricks on the brain. We can only perceive our world through our senses, even certain animals can percieve colors invisible to the naked eye. Which, too me, all says that the brain is a magnificent instrument, but is not perfect. And instruments aren't autonomous.

Yes, the brain is far from perfect. Not sure how this gives any credence to your contentions.

Our brains evolved to survive on the savannah. To come up with ways to get food from day to day, to avoid being eaten by lions, bit by a poison snake, etc.

The fact that our brains can be fooled by optical, tactile and auditory illusions is pretty well understood, given our kluged together brains and our evolutionary history.

Yes, other organisms can see colors we can't. So....?

The study of neuroscience has really come a long way ini recent years, and it continues to accelerate.

Read - "Kluge: The Haphazard Evolution of the Human Mind" by Gary Marcus

[FreeTony]

I've been reading a bit on quantum physics, and have come to the idea that the conscious state of mind is completely seperate from the brain.

To quote rationalwiki:

"Even having a basic understanding of quantum mechanics requires a working knowledge of differential, integral, multivariable, complex, vector and tensor calculus, differential equations, linear and abstract algebra, classic Newtonian mechanics and electromagnetism. Such topics are waaaaaaaaaaaay out of the league of anyone who hasn't spent at least three years studying them"

[Jenny A]

Lately I've been fascinated with the idea of consciousness. I've been reading a bit on quantum physics, and have come to the idea that the conscious state of mind is completely seperate from the brain.

Really? Let's look at your evidence for this feeling:

1) I feel as though I am not my body. For instance, if I cut my own hand off, my hand is no longer me, I'm still in the larger portion of my own body (of course I know that's mainly because my brain is still communicating with the rest of my body).

What you are really saying here is that you are separate from your body, not your brain. Cut off a everything but your brain, and if you could keep the brain alive you'd still be you. That makes it pretty clear to me that you are your brain, so to speak.

The funny thing is that the mind/body connection is both stronger and weaker than that. Neurologists have plotted the brain's map of the body on the brain itself. The map doesn't go away just because the limb has. Amputees commonly both benefit (in the use of prosthetic) and suffer from (pain and itching) from brain's unwillingness to really believe a missing limb is gone. Sometimes itching phantom limbs can be relieved by scratching the body parts next to them on the brain's map of the body. Cramped or twisted phantom limbs can be provided relief by fooling the eye with mirrors into believe the limb is being stretched.

Brain damage can sometimes cause the opposite and rather more disconcerting notion that one of your limbs is not yours.

Notice that all of this takes perception and missperception takes place in the brain, not somewhere outside the brain.

2) It takes the brain roughly 80 milliseconds to process new stimulus, including getting that information to the brain via the nervous system. Which introduces the idea that time may not exist if it is all according to how fast the brain can process whats going on.

Okay, now you are just being silly. How fast your brain processes information has everything to do with how fast you can perceive and nothing to do with how fast objects or time is really occurring. Basically what you've said is that your brain's perception of the world is bound by the laws of physics. Well, yeah it is.

I would say that mostly what you've shown here is that you are firmly bound to your body and brain which are material, and not that you exist outside it in anyway.

3) Finally, there are all types of optical, tactile and auditory illusions that can play tricks on the brain. We can only perceive our world through our senses, even certain animals can percieve colors invisible to the naked eye. Which, too me, all says that the brain is a magnificent instrument, but is not perfect. And instruments aren't autonomous.

Yep. The brain is far from perfect and we don't have the physical organs to perecieve all possible wave lengths of light, or hear all air vibrations, or see radio waves. Those are all by the way, things our other organs lack, not something wanting in the brain.

Illusions on the other hand, do take place because of how your brain interprets sensory input.

What on earth about any of this causes you to think your mind is separate from your brain. I read through your examples and become more and more convinced that we are completely limited by our brains because in a very real sense we are our brains.

---

We were never really born and we cannot really die, the mind body organism dies and is born, but we are not the mind body organism. When I say we, I mean we as one, so its not really plural, even to say that we are one isn't correct, for that makes it sound like there is more than one. Like our lungs, they don't really just stop in our bodies, they extend outward, they are one with the tree's where the oxygen comes from, the tree's are one with the sun where they get their sunlight to be able to produce oxygen, and so it goes on and on right back to the so called beginning, or the big bang, yes its all One.

Yes our bodies interact with the outside world. And our bodies contain a number of micro organisms that arguably aren't strictly speaking us either. But that doesn't make us everything else in any real way. Your car, if you have one, uses oxygen to move every bit as much as you do, but that doesn't make your care one with the cosmos. Interacting with and using are not the same as being one with.

---

I have no arguments, this is simply my experience, my truth, you don't need to prove truth, if you don't agree with me then that's fine, that's how it should be.

Arguments from personal experience not verifiable by others are essentially worthless for determining what the world is and how it works. What you've just said is "I feel at one with the cosmos." Fine I won't dispute that. But I will dispute whether you are really one with the cosmos. You aren't.

[Surgenator]

This was all in discussion over one of my sub-point for why consciousness might be seperate from the body, which was, "time may not exist if it is all according to how fast the brain can process whats going on". I was suggesting that if, how you said, "The ratio of the length of my existence and the universe's existence will approch zero" then would time necessarily exist if things continued on forever and just always was?

Yes, time would still exist whether someone is precieving it or not.

Why do you think the ratio is important? More on my original question, why should consciousness be dependent on this ratio?

[psychoslice]

Jenny A ; Arguments from personal experience not verifiable by others are essentially worthless for determining what the world is and how it works. What you've just said is "I feel at one with the cosmos." Fine I won't dispute that. But I will dispute whether you are really one with the cosmos. You aren't.

Of course we are one with the cosmos, everything in the cosmos is working together as one, everything came from the so called big bang, its just one big ocean, and everything that appears to be separate is the ocean, its our senses that make us believe all is separate. You are seeing what you see through your mind, but the mind cannot see beyond what the mind see's, your little package that is wrapped up in skin, is designed to feel separate, so as to live your life as a so called human being. This universal consciousness is all there is, this consciousness isn't within us, we are within it, and we are not separate from it, if we were then there would be something outside of the universe, outside of consciousness, but there isn't, its all an illusion, and it can be a beautiful illusion if we realize it is an illusion, it becomes a game, we no longer take life so serious, this is what is known as enlightenment, or awakening.

[The Grand Nudger]

Lately I've been fascinated with the idea of consciousness. I've been reading a bit on quantum physics, and have come to the idea that the conscious state of mind is completely seperate from the brain.

Perhaps you should have been reading a bit on biology, or nueroscience?

1) I feel as though I am not my body. For instance, if I cut my own hand off, my hand is no longer me, I'm still in the larger portion of my own body (of course I know that's mainly because my brain is still communicating with the rest of my body).

Sure, "mind/self/etc" does not arise from and is not contained within your hands.

2) It takes the brain roughly 80 milliseconds to process new stimulus, including getting that information to the brain via the nervous system. Which introduces the idea that time may not exist if it is all according to how fast the brain can process whats going on.

Your clock speed...lol, if you'll excuse me, has -everything- to do with your biologic machinery. This does not introduce the idea that time does not exist (and who the hell says that time is "according to how fast the brain can" - anything?), it explains why we do not perceive events that occur more quickly than this "in the present". There's a lag. Further, you're going to have to drop the 80 milliseconds bit as evidence for this claim - if time does not exist. 80 what again?

3) Finally, there are all types of optical, tactile and auditory illusions that can play tricks on the brain. We can only perceive our world through our senses, even certain animals can percieve colors invisible to the naked eye. Which, too me, all says that the brain is a magnificent instrument, but is not perfect. And instruments aren't autonomous.

Your "naked eye" is not arranged in the same way that those creatures "naked eye" is arranged. The differences in your equipment -with reference only to the eye...no involvement from your brain- explains the difference in perception. The brain is, however, a magnificent but imperfect organ for many reasons -just not this one. I suppose that such a notion would probably lead to us having reason to doubt anything that was the -product- of that organ.....(or would it )?

But, to address the very last bit. Who says instruments aren't autonomous? Does light -stop- filtering through a telescope just because no ones using it? It busily does -precisely what it's structure does- regardless of whether or not "someone" is "using" it.

[Jenny A]

Of course we are one with the cosmos, everything in the cosmos is working together as one, everything came from the so called big bang, its just one big ocean, and everything that appears to be separate is the ocean, its our senses that make us believe all is separate. You are seeing what you see through your mind, but the mind cannot see beyond what the mind see's, your little package that is wrapped up in skin, is designed to feel separate, so as to live your life as a so called human being. This universal consciousness is all there is, this consciousness isn't within us, we are within it, and we are not separate from it, if we were then there would be something outside of the universe, outside of consciousness, but there isn't, its all an illusion, and it can be a beautiful illusion if we realize it is an illusion, it becomes a game, we no longer take life so serious, this is what is known as enlightenment, or awakening.

emphasis mine

I wouldn't argue that we or I are separate from the universe. We are all part of the universe. The atoms which make us up once make up other things and will make up other things again in due time. We can't see or understand the whole universe. --- That's as far as I can agree with you.

The universe does not appear to be working together. There is certainly is no sign of any "universal consciousness." This has nothing to do with whether we take life seriously or not. It has to do with complete lack of evidence of either universal cooperation or consciousness.

[psychoslice]

Of course we are one with the cosmos, everything in the cosmos is working together as one, everything came from the so called big bang, its just one big ocean, and everything that appears to be separate is the ocean, its our senses that make us believe all is separate. You are seeing what you see through your mind, but the mind cannot see beyond what the mind see's, your little package that is wrapped up in skin, is designed to feel separate, so as to live your life as a so called human being. This universal consciousness is all there is, this consciousness isn't within us, we are within it, and we are not separate from it, if we were then there would be something outside of the universe, outside of consciousness, but there isn't, its all an illusion, and it can be a beautiful illusion if we realize it is an illusion, it becomes a game, we no longer take life so serious, this is what is known as enlightenment, or awakening.

emphasis mine

I wouldn't argue that we or I are separate from the universe. We are all part of the universe. The atoms which make us up once make up other things and will make up other things again in due time. We can't see or understand the whole universe. --- That's as far as I can agree with you.

The universe does not appear to be working together. There is certainly is no sign of any "universal consciousness." This has nothing to do with whether we take life seriously or not. It has to do with complete lack of evidence of either universal cooperation or consciousness.

As you agreed we are all part of the universe, this wholeness is what I call Universal Consciousness, everything works together, we as humans usually try to work against the universe or nature, we think we can improve it, which is silly. The cosmos is aware of its SELF, but not in the way we think it is, or own awareness or self conscious is nothing more than the mind that has been conditioned, this conditioning is what is known as the ego, the ego doesn't want to be anything other than itself, so to try and understand this wholeness is going against the ego, for then it becomes insignificant.

I think quantum science is getting close to understanding the fundamentals of what I am trying to explain, that is that everything is connected as one. This oneness was known by Mystics many years ago, and there are today many Mystic's that are starting to realize this also, again quantum science being one.

[Jenny A]

As you agreed we are all part of the universe, this wholeness is what I call Universal Consciousness, everything works together, we as humans usually try to work against the universe or nature, we think we can improve it, which is silly.

Labeling the universe in toto the "Universal Consciousness" does not make it conscious in any reasonable sense of the word.

The cosmos is aware of its SELF, but not in the way we think it is, . . .

I don't think the universe is self aware in any way whatsoever. Define the way in which you think it is. Then provide a little evidence.

. . . or own awareness or self conscious is nothing more than the mind that has been conditioned, this conditioning is what is known as the ego, the ego doesn't want to be anything other than itself, so to try and understand this wholeness is going against the ego, for then it becomes insignificant.

The ego is an outdated notion Freud pulled out of his ass. The mind is complex and while self aware, it doesn't appear to aware of all of it's own workings. It does not consist of an Id, super ego, and ego. But whatever are minds are, they don't appear to be connected to any vast conscious wholeness.

I think quantum science is getting close to understanding the fundamentals of what I am trying to explain, that is that everything is connected as one. This oneness was known by Mystics many years ago, and there are today many Mystic's that are starting to realize this also, again quantum science being one.

Quantum science does not as far as I know have anything to do with a conscious wholeness. Yes many mystics think there is a conscious wholeness of some kind. So do many people on LSD. Drug induced experiences can be quite similar to meditatively induced ones. But that is not evidence that the experience tells anything about the universe. It tells us much more about brain states than the cosmos.

[psychoslice]

Anyway, as I said we cannot conceptualize the oneness, if you want to debate it, then you win, for me there is no debating the essence of what everything is, it cannot be known through the mere mind, I have experienced it in my own awareness, or enlightenment, its all I know, its all I need to know.

---

Fritjof Capra

“Quantum theory thus reveals a basic oneness of the universe. It shows that we cannot decompose the world into independently existing smallest units. As we penetrate into matter, nature does not show us any isolated "building blocks," but rather appears as a complicated web of relations between the various parts of the whole. These relations always include the observer in an essential way. The human observer constitute the final link in the chain of observational processes, and the properties of any atomic object can be understood only in terms of the object's interaction with the observer.” Fritjof Capra