Alcoholics Anonymous and Drug Addiction

[AceBoogie]

Er, OK...a little random to just start a thread about it regarding AA, but whatever.

It's my understanding that the off-topic section of this forum is for random subjects and this is something that I thought other people might want to discuss, so I posted a thread about it.

It never left me thinking that. AA didn't work for me in the long run. All the talk about drinking just made me want to drink. But I have plenty of respect for them. I didn't see any catches. As they say in the intro to many meetings, "If you want what we have..." Seems like a fair pitch to me.

Everyone has their own opinion and that's ok. I am just saying this is how it came off to me. I certainly have respect for AA and its members, what I don't have respect for is the spreading of misinformation. And as I've learned, there really is no catch, it's just a bunch of people with the same issues trying to help each other get better. With that being said, a lot of what is said in the Big Book and in AA is just bullshit, plain and simple, so to me it has sometimes sounded like a poorly constructed sales pitch. But I would imagine if AA helps you get better that is much more positive and constructive than a life of alcoholism or crack addiction or something.

From the typical preamble to a meeting:

Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are ready to take certain steps.

I.e., they're very upfront that, if you want what they have, you need to do what they say. If you don't want it, you're free to leave.

I agree they are very upfront about that, I'm not clear on the point you're attempting to make here.

[vorlon13]

I've chaired meetings and presented topics. None were 'religious' or even vaguely in the 'higher power' orbit. I like pointing out things that most of the attendees are or have already done that were difficult, and worth doing, and let them make the connection to what they are now attempting.

It takes a certain degree of balls to walk into a church in broad daylight, at the meeting time of a publicly noted gay AA meeting. So when I'm there leading the meeting, that's a good thing to point out. No one present is in the category of the stay at home cowering in the closet, so it's something to build on. Conquering the fear of living alcohol free doesn't seem so hard then if they are already there at the meeting, and nothing bad has happened.

Even big doctrinaire topics like sponsorship I tend to avoid. As for the steps, I do like nonspecific amends and have managed to work that in a few times. I don't like the 4th step as a topic.

[Aractus]

http://youtu.be/YF72vvW-y3M

I mostly agree with this video, and I generally don't like 12-step programs, but there are some nagging issues I'll point out:

1. AA and other 12-step programs don't collect or publish data and so we can't know the effectiveness: TRUE.
2. AA is shown by the data Pen and Teller looked at to be ineffective: FALSE. The data does show that long-term effectiveness specifically for Alcoholics, but does not mean it isn't effective short-term or that other 12-step programs (e.g. Gamblers Anonymous) is ineffective. Gamblers Anonymous was found to be as effective short term (after 6-months) as professional cognitive-behavioural therapy (CBT) in a controlled trial (see Twelve-step facilitated versus mapping-enhanced cognitive-behavioral therapy for pathological gambling: A controlled study. (2010). By Marceaux, J. C. and Melville, C. L.)
3. Alcoholism is a disease: Partially TRUE. Addictions can be a disease, "gambling disorder" is the only addictive disorder that is a recognised disease but is not caused by substance use or abuse. Substance dependence can be thought of as being a disease.

However, an alcoholic is any person where alcohol affects their life negatively, and they are not necessarily "addicted".

[Dorian Gray]

My experience with AA has been more or less neutral. I've been to hundreds of meetings, some court-ordered, some not, some required by a sober home I once lived in. The last time I spent a year in AA (attending at least 3 meetings per week), I was sober, but that was because we would get kicked out of the sober home if we drank.

I was mostly agnostic at the time of attending AA through my 20s and 30s. I have worked the steps, at least as far as I could "fake" it. Step 2 (Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity) was iffy for me. I never "came to believe" this. Step 5 (Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs) was, according to my sponsor, supposed to alleviate a heavy weight off my shoulders. It didn't. I think I went out and ate a burger after this.

Step 6 (Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.) Uh, yeah...I'm ready...whatever...meh. Step 7 - (Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings) Again, it was like, whatever. And, why does my "Higher Power" have to be a Him with a capital H and why do I "humbly" have to do this? Kind of strikes me as a pointer to a Christian god....

Step 9 (Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others) was and is an important step, because a lot of alcoholics have a lot of guilt over people they hurt in the past. I got bogged down here, because my step 9 was going to take me years to complete. Around this time I left the sober home and started drinking again. Stopped again months later of my own accord, started again, stopped again.

Near the end of my AA life, I was really only attending to see if I could network with people who might be able to help me find a decent job.

Just for the record, I was and AM what they call a real alcoholic. I have lost everything I have ever had or owned many times over. After the sober home experience, my wife (who was also a serious alcoholic) and I couldn't find any gainful employment other than washing dishes and fast food work. Contrary to those that say humbleness and humility are the way to sobriety, I found the contrary to be true. I was once successfully self-employed with all the amenities of a good life. Washing dishes and flipping burgers just made me want to drink even more. I once wanted to get a job at McDonalds just so I could buy a gun with my first paycheck and blow my brains out.

Eventually we both took to the streets, lived under bridges, and panhandled for booze, and maybe, food. Funny how food always came third after vodka and cigarettes. My wife died last year laying next to me under a bridge on a frigid night. The coroner's report cited death due to "chronic alcoholism." We were each polishing off a half gallon of vodka a day for years. And this, you have to understand, was just maintenance drinking - we never slurred our words or stumbled around, or got into trouble.

Now, after my 8 month stint at a Christian rehab, which threw me into total atheism, I am only saying that if anybody should have ever turned to AA or God, or whatever, it would be me. I have been sober now for almost a year again, and it's not due to god, or AA or any of that. I wish I could attribute my sobriety to a testimony that would be inspiring to spiritual people or AA people, but it's me that keeps me sober. Not god, not AA, not any outside influence. Maybe I've had enough. Maybe I'm not done yet. Sometimes I feel like going "back out." But this time it would be to do it right and finish the insanity that I started.

I have more grief and depression now than ever. I can't find any meaningful employment, even though I'm very computer literate and college educated. I have some clothes and about $20 to my name. I still miss my wife dearly. I live with two morons who knew my wife peripherally - one who has only read the Bible and that's all she'll ever read, and her son, who has delusions of grandeur and a pill habit and pot smoking that keep him housebound. I see all this around me and I wish I could start a meeting of people who could gather for some effective non-spiritual help. It's what I feel I should do with whatever remains of my life, but I just feel that AA doesn't really help people. If it does, they probably were going to quit anyway and just attribute their spontaneous remission to AA.

I know there are people out there like me. Maybe not so many that had the same experiences I do, but I was immersed in AA for a very long time and found it lacking because I couldn't swallow the god pill. Oh, and I don't see alcoholism as the main problem. It's a symptom of a much deeper issue, some find a "spiritual" answer. I looked in the face of religion, and discarded it as a delusion, so now all I have is stark reality, and it's sometimes a lonely thing, but I just don't believe in god.

[Aractus]

We were each polishing off a half gallon of vodka a day for years. And this, you have to understand, was just maintenance drinking - we never slurred our words or stumbled around, or got into trouble.

I believe you that this was maintenance drinking that you were dependant and that going cold turkey at that point would have killed you, I do not believe you "did not slur your words". The maintenance drinking, as I understand it, would be to keep your blood alcohol from dropping below a certain point (eg .2).

I wish I could attribute my sobriety to a testimony that would be inspiring to spiritual people or AA people, but it's me that keeps me sober. Not god, not AA, not any outside influence. Maybe I've had enough. Maybe I'm not done yet. Sometimes I feel like going "back out." But this time it would be to do it right and finish the insanity that I started.

True that its down to you, however it sounds like you still found AA to be somewhat useful. I'm an AA critic I believe the program is fundamentally flawed by the fact that it relies on self-belief in the program and has not updated it or opened itself to proper critical analysis, but I still believe in giving credit where credit is due.

Also I know someone who was kicked out of a 12-step program. What kind of treatment program excommunicates members?

I have more grief and depression now than ever. I can't find any meaningful employment, even though I'm very computer literate and college educated. I have some clothes and about $20 to my name. I still miss my wife dearly. I live with two morons who knew my wife peripherally - one who has only read the Bible and that's all she'll ever read, and her son, who has delusions of grandeur and a pill habit and pot smoking that keep him housebound. I see all this around me and I wish I could start a meeting of people who could gather for some effective non-spiritual help. It's what I feel I should do with whatever remains of my life, but I just feel that AA doesn't really help people. If it does, they probably were going to quit anyway and just attribute their spontaneous remission to AA.

Why do you want to meet other alcoholics again? Could you find some other interest of yours or something to join and be a part of (a sporting club or something)? You can always join a NPO that interests you if you want as well and be a part of that group. There are other things you can do and groups you can join besides ex-alcoholics.

[AceBoogie]

I take the same stance as some of you, while there are many flaws and contradictory ideas in AA, it still has some merit. More specifically, I think having a support group of people who share the same issues as you can always be of help. I think, however, that this CAN become a problem when, using AA as an example, all you do is hang out with other AA members, go to AA functions, make AA YOUR LIFE. That is replacing one addiction with another and is a very close-minded way of living life i.e. thinking that other addicts are the only other people you can relate to. I think one of the points of getting sober is to have a full, interesting life. The idea is to be sober so you CAN live your life, in other words, participating in hobbies and things that interest you.

I think a lot of people need to stop making their addiction such a big deal. Stop letting it have so much power over your life. Do you need to watch who you hang with? Maybe so. Do you need to watch where you go? Maybe so. And I'm sure there are some key techniques and tools one can use to maintain sobriety, outside of willpower itself of course.

With that being said there ARE secular alternatives to AA, which I'm sure Dorian will be happy to here. There is LifeRing, SMART Recovery, SOS (Secular Organization for Sobriety)... There may be others but I think these are the most well known. However keep in mind that there are not nearly as many of these meetings as there are AA meetings. If going to meetings is something that helps you, maybe it isn't a terrible idea to attend AA meetings along with some LifeRing meetings or whatever. No one says AA can't be a supplement to your secular based support group.

[Dorian Gray]

True that its down to you, however it sounds like you still found AA to be somewhat useful. I'm an AA critic I believe the program is fundamentally flawed by the fact that it relies on self-belief in the program and has not updated it or opened itself to proper critical analysis, but I still believe in giving credit where credit is due.

Why do you want to meet other alcoholics again? Could you find some other interest of yours or something to join and be a part of (a sporting club or something)? You can always join a NPO that interests you if you want as well and be a part of that group. There are other things you can do and groups you can join besides ex-alcoholics.

Well, AA didn't work for me because I don't believe in god. That is really the main requirement for any success there. Otherwise, it's frankly just a waste of time. I also found there's a lot of time wasted in every single meeting having to blindly follow the structure of the welcome, the introductions ("I'm so-and-so, I'm an alcoholic""), the reading of the Preamble, The 12 Traditions, and "How it Works." This would take sometimes 15 minutes of an hour long meeting. I know this is nitpicky, but I just can't stand following traditions and structures just because this is the way it's always been done.

I also don't like having to announce myself everytime as an alcoholic. I mean, I was also a son, a husband, a writer, a good cook, a book-lover, a freethinker, and much, much more. It's about time addicts thought something good of themselves instead of the constant self-degrading which addicts do anyway.

Sobriety dates are of great importance in AA, even though people will tell you they aren't. I find it ridiculous to punish some guy who had 20 years sober go out for a week and drink and have to go in and get another "desire chip" as if he had just blown away 20 years of sobriety. That 20 years is still there, but to AA he is now just a newcomer again. It's a sad and degrading way of doing things.

Plus, it's a peer to peer assisted program. In other words, we have the blind leading the blind. My sponsor told me of so many problems and about all the sex he could have had with women in AA, that he told me he had to meditate 2 hours a day just "to get his head straight." He had 20 years of sobriety and told me about all his marital problems. Of course, idiot me, with just my (at the time) 5 months of sobriety I was afraid to tell him maybe you should spend some more time with your wife instead of going to 10 AA meetings a week, but what do I know? I'm just a stupid drunk, right?

Why do I want to meet other alcoholics again? Because the image of my wife's body lying face down in a parking lot in the snow and ice is indelibly ingrained on my mind. In my daytime hours, and in my nightmares. And yet I remain alive. I would like to make it my mission in life to help the homeless without "jesus saves" or "god loves you" or any sort of spiritual based 12-step nonsense. There are no secular-based groups like SMART or SOS here but I would be interested in starting one. Unfortunately, I don't have anything to get me started right now. No car, no money, no job, just a passion and time.

[AceBoogie]

I disagree when you say AA is a waste of time when you don't believe in god. There are plenty of people who have found a way to make AA make sense for them despite the whole god thing.

http://aaagnostica.org/wp-content/upload...-09-21.pdf

^This book was written by an atheist AA member. He talks all about how he made sense of AA without any of the god bullshit. The whole higher power concept in AA, whether people will admit it or not, is about ego deflation. Which can be a GOOD thing for people like addicts, to SOME extent.

Don't let 'god' scare you away from AA if there are parts of it that make sense to you. Take what you can and leave the rest, as they would say lol

AA has a lot of silliness in it. It really does, which usually comes more so from people's interpretations of how things should be in AA rather than what the Big Book actually says. And even the Big Book is not looked at in a logical rational way, it's more seen as the BIBLE of sobriety. When you have a question, people will answer with some quote from the big book just like they would quote you scripture. So there IS a lot of BS you'd have to deal with as an atheist in AA. But I have several atheist friends who are in AA and they find a way to make it work for them.

I suppose it depends on how important your sobriety is to you and what you think makes sense for you.

[Aractus]

Well, AA didn't work for me because I don't believe in god. That is really the main requirement for any success there. Otherwise, it's frankly just a waste of time. I also found there's a lot of time wasted in every single meeting having to blindly follow the structure of the welcome, the introductions ("I'm so-and-so, I'm an alcoholic""), the reading of the Preamble, The 12 Traditions, and "How it Works." This would take sometimes 15 minutes of an hour long meeting. I know this is nitpicky, but I just can't stand following traditions and structures just because this is the way it's always been done.

Yep, I hear you. There was a small amount of the program that seemed relevant and useful to you, and a lot that wasn't. As I said before, a program that hasn't changed in 60 or 70 years is hardly likely to be the ideal program and that's one of the biggest problems I have with it. Also, you're right that belief in a "higher power" is a problem for anyone who doesn't believe in a deity, the program was designed at a time when most people believed in a deity.

I also don't like having to announce myself everytime as an alcoholic. I mean, I was also a son, a husband, a writer, a good cook, a book-lover, a freethinker, and much, much more. It's about time addicts thought something good of themselves instead of the constant self-degrading which addicts do anyway.

I agree 100%, as per my comments in the last thread about perhaps you'd like to join a hobby group or something which shares one of your passions.

Sobriety dates are of great importance in AA, even though people will tell you they aren't. I find it ridiculous to punish some guy who had 20 years sober go out for a week and drink and have to go in and get another "desire chip" as if he had just blown away 20 years of sobriety. That 20 years is still there, but to AA he is now just a newcomer again. It's a sad and degrading way of doing things.

It's also not the right way for every "addiction" that 12-step programs look at. It probably is the best way for some alcoholics - to never touch alcohol, and indeed for other drug users. For gamblers on the other hand, research shows that it is better to help gamblers manage their gambling so that it doesn't harm them, whereas GA teaches abstinence.

Why do I want to meet other alcoholics again? Because the image of my wife's body lying face down in a parking lot in the snow and ice is indelibly ingrained on my mind. In my daytime hours, and in my nightmares. And yet I remain alive. I would like to make it my mission in life to help the homeless without "jesus saves" or "god loves you" or any sort of spiritual based 12-step nonsense. There are no secular-based groups like SMART or SOS here but I would be interested in starting one. Unfortunately, I don't have anything to get me started right now. No car, no money, no job, just a passion and time.

All the church-run programs I know of here, i.e. in Canberra, for the homeless do not proselytise, and you have to understand the churches are an effective point of contact. Ie people do approach churches, whether they have any programs or not to help people, for assistance. And it happens all the time. Churches do support secular-based community intervention programs. So I wouldn't rule out working with a church to start and build a secular-based program if I were you.

[Bad Wolf]

AA is a total scam. The success rate they give is not accurate because they just ignore the people who don't succeed. They don't count them. They just remove them from the program and say they didn't finish. But it's impossible to actually finish the program.