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RE: Systematically Dismantling Atheism
November 21, 2014 at 3:58 pm
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2014 at 4:00 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 21, 2014 at 3:55 pm)Asmodee Wrote: So you're saying it is possible to be simply "agnostic". Thank you. Of course, but I don't think it's possible to be agnostic about -just anything-. Suppose I said that "cowboy killers" were elephants? Do you believe that I smoke cowboy killers?
-ps, I didn't ask you how much information you had - it isn't relevant - yet....but that -is- one way of avoiding participation, granted.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Systematically Dismantling Atheism
November 21, 2014 at 4:08 pm
(November 21, 2014 at 3:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (November 21, 2014 at 3:55 pm)Asmodee Wrote: So you're saying it is possible to be simply "agnostic". Thank you. Of course, but I don't think it's possible to be agnostic about -just anything-. Suppose I said that "cowboy killers" were elephants? Do you believe that I smoke cowboy killers?
-ps, I didn't ask you how much information you had - it isn't relevant - yet....but that -is- one way of avoiding participation, granted.
You can move the goalposts on a specific example all you want. It's not going to prove your point. And yes, people can be agnostic about anything. My brain is not your brain is not his brain. We don't all think alike and we don't all have the same understanding about any given thing. Maybe YOU can't be agnostic about a specific thing. That doesn't mean I can't. My understanding of that thing may be different. My thought process on that thing may be different. You are acting as if there is a "right way" and a "wrong way" to think; as if any given thought process can be definitively quantified and boiled down to one of two simplistic answers for every single person an Earth. The claim is simply ludicrous.
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RE: Systematically Dismantling Atheism
November 21, 2014 at 4:11 pm
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2014 at 4:13 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I'm not shifting any goalposts, sigh. I'm trying to see how this "simply agnostic" thing holds up to a wide variety of proposals that are mechanically equivalent. Anything, you say...people can be agnostic about anything? Do you believe that you know your own name? I'm agnostic about many things, but not -anything-......and I doubt that you and I are different at all in this regard.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Systematically Dismantling Atheism
November 21, 2014 at 4:15 pm
(November 21, 2014 at 4:11 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I'm not shifting any goalposts, sigh. I'm trying to see how this "simply agnostic" thing holds up to a wide variety of proposals that are mechanically equivalent. Anything, you say...people can be agnostic about anything? Do you believe that you know your own name? I'm agnostic about many things, but not -anything-......and I doubt that you and I are different at all in this regard.
Agnostic is not a great term to use because you would need to be agnostic of most things. I.E. i am agnostic of the flying spaghetti monster because he could be there and he might not be there. Or i am agnostic of some x person chewing bubble gum or x person isn't chewing bubble gum.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: Systematically Dismantling Atheism
November 21, 2014 at 4:15 pm
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2014 at 4:18 pm by Asmodee.)
(November 21, 2014 at 4:11 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I'm not shifting any goalposts, sigh. I'm trying to see how this "simply agnostic" thing holds up to a wide variety of proposals that are mechanically equivalent. Anything, you say...people can be agnostic about anything? Do you believe that you know your own name?
You're not? I thought that's what you called it when you kept changing the parameters until you get the answer you want.
And yes, people (people as a whole, not any particular individual) can be agnostic about anything (as in one of the 7 billion people on the planet could potentially be agnostic about any given concept). If you think you can prove that wrong by showing that a specific person can't be agnostic about a specific thing then you misunderstand what I'm saying.
(November 21, 2014 at 4:15 pm)dyresand Wrote: (November 21, 2014 at 4:11 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I'm not shifting any goalposts, sigh. I'm trying to see how this "simply agnostic" thing holds up to a wide variety of proposals that are mechanically equivalent. Anything, you say...people can be agnostic about anything? Do you believe that you know your own name? I'm agnostic about many things, but not -anything-......and I doubt that you and I are different at all in this regard.
Agnostic is not a great term to use because you would need to be agnostic of most things. I.E. i am agnostic of the flying spaghetti monster because he could be there and he might not be there. Or i am agnostic of some x person chewing bubble gum or x person isn't chewing bubble gum. You guys are way over-thinking this. Yes, I am agnostic about any specific person other than myself chewing bubble gum right now, but is it really relevant? Do I need to use the word to explain what I believe about any and every off-the-wall thing? Nobody says, "I'm agnostic" to mean "I don't know if Lucy is chewing bubble gum right now." When someone claims to be agnostic they are pretty much speaking in religious terms. Yet here we are, having this huge philosophical debate going off on every single tangent we can imagine...except religion.
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RE: Systematically Dismantling Atheism
November 21, 2014 at 4:20 pm
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2014 at 4:23 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
If there is just one thing we can't be agnostic about, that would mean that we can't be agnostic about -anything-....by definition. We can be agnostic about some things, but my position is that our beliefs are among those things where the term does not apply.
I keep asking questions because I expect -different answers- gigglesticks. Not because I expect "my answer". Perhaps, and this is probably just me being hopeful, seeing how the answer changes will help us to understand what sorts of "things" that agnosticism even applies to.
You don't believe that I smoke elephants, do you?
You don't know whether or not I smoke reds, but you may be willing to believe that I do (or believe that I don't) if I offer more information.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Systematically Dismantling Atheism
November 21, 2014 at 4:31 pm
(November 21, 2014 at 3:35 pm)Asmodee Wrote: LOL, I can actually do that. A computer is made up of many components. I can simply unplug half of them. The combination of those parts make up "my computer" as a whole, therefore my computer very much CAN BE half on and half off.
Not if there's an odd number of components.
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RE: Systematically Dismantling Atheism
November 21, 2014 at 4:33 pm
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2014 at 4:34 pm by Asmodee.)
(November 21, 2014 at 4:20 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If there is just one thing we can't be agnostic about, that would mean that we can't be agnostic about -anything-....by definition. (November 21, 2014 at 4:20 pm)Rhythm Wrote: We can be agnostic about some things, but my position is that our beliefs are among those things where the term does not apply.
Wait...WHAT? In one sentence it's all or none, in the next it's not? That doesn't even make any sense.
The first sentence there, that's just wrong, as you point out in the second sentence...
As for the second sentence you are saying that it is your belief that one cannot be agnostic. That's fine, but it is in direct opposition to one whose belief it is that they are agnostic. As I'm sure you well know beliefs are neither right nor wrong. That's why it's something we believe and not something we know. By definition a belief can be neither right nor wrong until it stops being a belief and starts being a fact, either true or false.
That being said, you apparently hold the belief that another belief is wrong.
(November 21, 2014 at 4:31 pm)Cato Wrote: (November 21, 2014 at 3:35 pm)Asmodee Wrote: LOL, I can actually do that. A computer is made up of many components. I can simply unplug half of them. The combination of those parts make up "my computer" as a whole, therefore my computer very much CAN BE half on and half off.
Not if there's an odd number of components.
I own a computer store. I'll just throw another DVD drive in it.
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RE: Systematically Dismantling Atheism
November 21, 2014 at 4:40 pm
(November 21, 2014 at 4:33 pm)Asmodee Wrote: I own a computer store. I'll just throw another DVD drive in it.
Ah, so you're the type that thinks it's okay to put pieces back on the board to avoid mate.
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RE: Systematically Dismantling Atheism
November 21, 2014 at 4:48 pm
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2014 at 4:51 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 21, 2014 at 4:33 pm)Asmodee Wrote: Wait...WHAT? In one sentence it's all or none, in the next it's not? That doesn't even make any sense.
The first sentence there, that's just wrong, as you point out in the second sentence... "Anything can photosynthesize"
"This one thing can't"
Do you understand? I can say this as many ways as you like. If you say we can be agnostic about anything I only have to point out a single thing that we can't be agnostic about to demonstrate why this claim is in error. Personally, I think that there's more than one thing in that set.
Quote:As for the second sentence you are saying that it is your belief that one cannot be agnostic.
About particular things, yes. I'm being generous here - as I rarely answer any question regarding what I believe in the affirmative. Rarely as in never, in years of posting. It's not exactly what I'm saying, but it's clear that you aren't going to participate in what I'm actually saying...so I'll let you do your thing. So, where to next?
Quote: That's fine, but it is in direct opposition to one whose belief it is that they are agnostic.
Belief and knowledge are not the same thing. Someone may believe that they don;t know whatever they believe - I'm suggesting that their belief is in error, yes, surprise surprise.
Quote:As I'm sure you well know beliefs are neither right nor wrong.
If you believe that I smoke elephants you'd be wrong.
Quote: That's why it's something we believe and not something we know. By definition a belief can be neither right nor wrong until it stops being a belief and starts being a fact, either true or false.
A belief can be right or wrong regardless..jesus christ.
Quote:That being said, you apparently hold the belief that another belief is wrong.
Belief isn't required to demonstrate that a given belief is wrong, but even if it were and I did...and?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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