Systematically Dismantling Atheism

[Losty]

I suppose, but I think I really just miscommunicated my feelings. I was meaning to say in reference to religion and/or god specifically.

[The Grand Nudger]

If I can say that I know that hot water burns my hands I can just as easily say that I know that there are no gods. There's nothing about the god proposition that deserves special consideration.

[Losty]

You can say whatever you want, but you do not know that there are no gods.

[The Grand Nudger]

As much as I know that hot water burns my hands. Perhaps I know neither? I'm either going to have to claim absolute ignorance - or use the word "know" differently when it comes to gods than I do about anything else that I use the same word with. Obviously, I've decided not to bother with either of those options.

[Losty]

Perhaps :p

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Things that can be proven true are things you can know. Things that cannot be proven true aren't. Or that's how I see it. You cannot know that there is no Santa clause, gods, unicorns, vampires, ghosts, demons, magic. These are things you cannot be certain of. It's impossible to know something that can't be tested. It's impossible to test something that isn't there.

[The Grand Nudger]

I do sometimes think that this "you cannot know" business is just an effect of having had the notion placed on a pedestal for so long. A benefit of longstanding cultural dominance that even exerts a pull over those who otherwise do not believe or do not ascribe a single ounce of credibility to the idea. Those subtle ways that religious tradition has built a bastion for itself in our societies and even our minds.

Sometimes I'm glad I escaped what I see as a yoke in that regard...but I probably have similar ticks about other subjects waiting to be discovered.

How about yourself Losty, why is it that you think that I cannot know (and I assume you think the same for yourself)?

(as far as that list of things that you say we cannot know - I'll just use the same line for your own name, the sun rising, your very existence or the existence of anything - maybe "know" is a meaningless word - and we should stop using it entirely? I wouldn't, I don't think that it is......but what do I know?)

[TreeSapNest]

You can say whatever you want, but you do not know that there are no gods.

I share the same outlook with leprechauns: I don't "know" they don't exist, yet have the view they don't. No worries. :-)

[Losty]

I do sometimes think that this "you cannot know" business is just an effect of having had the notion placed on a pedestal for so long. A benefit of longstanding cultural dominance that even exerts a pull over those who otherwise do not believe or do not ascribe a single ounce of credibility to the idea. Those subtle ways that religious tradition has built a bastion for itself in our societies and even our minds.

Sometimes I'm glad I escaped what I see as a yoke in that regard...but I probably have similar ticks about other subjects waiting to be discovered.

How about yourself Losty, why is it that you think that I cannot know (and I assume you think the same for yourself)?

Hmm...I don't know :p

Really it just makes sense that you can know about things that can be seen, touched, studied, tested etc., but you can't know about things that don't exist. Probably it's actually it's own way of predicting the existence of something. If it cannot be seen, touched, studied, or tested then it likely doesn't exist. That or we lack the technology. I believe that there are no gods, but I don't feel comfortable saying I know that their are no gods because it can't be proven.

(as far as that list of things that you say we cannot know - I'll just use the same line for your own name, the sun rising, your very existence or the existence of anything - maybe "know" is a meaningless word - and we should stop using it entirely? I wouldn't, I don't think that it is......but what do I know?)

Sometimes I feel this way. Sometimes I don't. Most of the time I feel the same about the possibility of not being about to know anything as a do about the possibility of the existence of god/s. That being, I simply don't care.

[The Grand Nudger]

Does invoking experience (touch, taste, sight, etc) actually overcome the objections that an "invisible" something presents? I would find it difficult to make that argument myself - if I accepted that premises of the "invisible this or that". I think that we've all seen things that aren't actually as we see them. Heard things, every one of us has an issue with touch ( a metal pole feels colder than the air on a cold day...but it probably isn't).

I think that you might find that proving anything is a little more difficult than you think - and that there is never any certainty offered even from that which is proven - it's all provisional. What would you feel comfortable calling proven and therefore known in some way that the god proposition cannot be? Can I take a knife to it?

[Tonus]

I do sometimes think that this "you cannot know" business is just an effect of having had the notion placed on a pedestal for so long.

I think that it's used by theists as a way to get around the thorny problem of not being able to produce the necessary evidence for a claim. "You can't say it isn't/didn't" may be unsatisfying (and easily turned around on the person using it), but you can't be picky with your last resort.