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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 5, 2015 at 8:28 pm
(January 5, 2015 at 8:07 pm)*steve* Wrote: Hello, I'm new to the forum. Full disclosure: I'm currently a non-traditional theist. However, I have considered atheism a few times but it seems to be such a grim position. Let me explain.
As I understand atheism, these would be a few of its tenets:
There is no ultimate meaning. Therefore, all lives and events are ultimately meaningless.
There is no ultimate basis for value. Therefore any moral position is ultimately arbitrary and logically, equally defensible. This means that things like genocide, pedophilia, torture, etc. are equally defensible to any other moral position.
There is no ultimate intentionality associated with/in reality. Therefore, all events, actions, thoughts and behaviors are determined by chance and necessity. Thus, an individual's thoughts and actions are determined solely by prior causal events and chance.
At least for me, if I take these atheist positions to their logical conclusion this all seems psychologically pretty grim.
I'd be interested in comments why this is not necessarily the case.
You left out the bit about eating babies.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 5, 2015 at 8:32 pm
(January 5, 2015 at 8:28 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: You left out the bit about eating babies.
Boru
Indeed. An oversight that should not be forgiven.
Baby a l'orange....
Getting hungry now. Thanks!
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 5, 2015 at 8:37 pm
(January 5, 2015 at 8:20 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Your meaning in life is derived from you. My meaning in life is derived from me. Yours is not mine, and mine is not yours. If you've decided that christianity is your meaning in life, then fine. It's a personal thing.
First off, let me short circuit the Christian thing. I'm not a Christian. My theology derives in large part from philosophical ideas like those found in VishishtAdvaita (qualified monism) and absolute idealism. No savior, heaven, or hell in my beliefs.
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 5, 2015 at 9:06 pm
Sorry. I was being presumptive there. I am most familiar with christianity, and sometimes assume wrongly that someone is talking about that when they say they're a theist. In my defense, three of the predominant religions of the world worship the same god.
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 5, 2015 at 9:06 pm
See what can happen when someone makes assumptions about a person's beliefs?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 5, 2015 at 9:06 pm
(January 5, 2015 at 8:07 pm)*steve* Wrote: Hello, I'm new to the forum. Full disclosure: I'm currently a non-traditional theist. However, I have considered atheism a few times but it seems to be such a grim position. Let me explain.
As I understand atheism, these would be a few of its tenets:
There is no ultimate meaning. Therefore, all lives and events are ultimately meaningless.
There is no ultimate basis for value. Therefore any moral position is ultimately arbitrary and logically, equally defensible. This means that things like genocide, pedophilia, torture, etc. are equally defensible to any other moral position.
There is no ultimate intentionality associated with/in reality. Therefore, all events, actions, thoughts and behaviors are determined by chance and necessity. Thus, an individual's thoughts and actions are determined solely by prior causal events and chance.
At least for me, if I take these atheist positions to their logical conclusion this all seems psychologically pretty grim.
I'd be interested in comments why this is not necessarily the case.
Which is more important-- truth or comfort? You have to choose between the blue pill and the red one.
I think you could argue that cognitive dissonance-- the difference between a person's world view and reality-- is the deepest and most dangerous source of psychological pressure. Having an unreal idea too close to the core of one's personality is extremely dangerous, as when it's unreality is revealed, it can lead to a nervous breakdown or an identity crisis.
It's possible, though, that you really think God is real, and that nothing could ever happen (death of a loved one, a virus that kills only toddlers, a Republican majority government) that would shake that world view. In that case, it's possible that you could live and die without ever having to experience that crisis.
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 5, 2015 at 9:10 pm
(January 5, 2015 at 8:28 pm)whateverist Wrote: Hell I wouldn't even tell him the secret handshake after such a dismissive post.
![[Image: 1EmcB.gif]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i.imgur.com%2F1EmcB.gif)
Funny when Santorum does it!
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 5, 2015 at 9:42 pm
(January 5, 2015 at 9:06 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Which is more important-- truth or comfort? You have to choose between the blue pill and the red one.
For me truth is ultimate. Otherwise one has to live a delusion. However, discomfort can be a driving force to find some kind of truth that does not offend other sensibilities (i.e. being scientifically minded, commitment to reason and logic, critical thinking, being systematic, etc.)
(January 5, 2015 at 9:06 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I think you could argue that cognitive dissonance-- the difference between a person's world view and reality-- is the deepest and most dangerous source of psychological pressure. Having an unreal idea too close to the core of one's personality is extremely dangerous, as when it's unreality is revealed, it can lead to a nervous breakdown or an identity crisis.
I agree.
(January 5, 2015 at 9:06 pm)bennyboy Wrote: It's possible, though, that you really think God is real, and that nothing could ever happen (death of a loved one, a virus that kills only toddlers, a Republican majority government) that would shake that world view. In that case, it's possible that you could live and die without ever having to experience that crisis.
Anyone who hasn't experienced a cognitive (or faith) crisis must have powerful psychological defense mechanisms. May or may not be beneficial but for some that is not an option.
The problem of evil is a big one. Theodicies I have seen so far are not that convincing to me. My view is that the only valid approach is to not shield God from what we call evil. Doesn't make sense otherwise. However, I also think that the mitigating circumstance comes under the rubric of "Life". The very same forces that make life possible also make "evil" possible. No "evil", no life. Question is whether that compromise is worth it or not. Some of the very things we love about life are the product of both creation and destruction. For instance, learning entails both. Those same processes are at work in both what we love about life and what we hate. Personally I hope there isn't a heaven as typically characterized where there is no pain. No pain, no growth, no joy. All would be boringly stagnant.
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 5, 2015 at 9:45 pm
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2015 at 9:49 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 5, 2015 at 9:42 pm)*steve* Wrote: No "evil", no life. Did you pass that statement by a sunflower just to see if it held up? Seems to me, like the bit about pain growth and joy...what you have is an excuse, a deepity. Doesn't seem to square with the idea of not shielding some hypothetical god (and I'm pretty sure that there are apologists who -do- use precisely this line).......
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 5, 2015 at 9:57 pm
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2015 at 10:12 pm by *steve*.)
(January 5, 2015 at 9:06 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Sorry. I was being presumptive there. I am most familiar with christianity, and sometimes assume wrongly that someone is talking about that when they say they're a theist. In my defense, three of the predominant religions of the world worship the same god.
No problem. Given the state of religion worldwide, it's a fair assumption. Things are changing now a bit here and there. On my street, I have neighbors who are Christian, Muslim, Hindi, Non-religious, and Buddhist.
(January 5, 2015 at 9:45 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (January 5, 2015 at 9:42 pm)*steve* Wrote: No "evil", no life. Did you pass that statement by a sunflower just to see if it held up? Seems to me, like the bit about pain growth and joy...what you have is an excuse, a deepity. Doesn't seem to square with the idea of not shielding some hypothetical god (and I'm pretty sure that there are apologists who -do- use precisely this line).......
Call it an excuse if you want. I call it a mitigating circumstance. If God is the creator of our reality, God isn't shielded from the pain, suffering, evil, etc. If God created the universe as it is then God must have felt the positives were worth the negatives.
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