Atheist vs Pantheist

[Cheerful Charlie]

The idea that science ignores concepts like souls is correct. Starting with Descartes, the best minds in Europe struggled for decades trying to figure out what soul was and how it interacted with matter, our bodies. The task wholly defeated them. There is an old concept of secondary causes, that is nature, God created nature and its material laws, which we experience. Natural philosophy was the investigation of secondary causes, which became science. Philosophy took up the task of evidences of supernaturalism and failed utterly to demonstrate that any such exists.Science does not need supernaturalism, and sees no evidence any such exists.

Science then does not deal with supernaturalism because no such thing can be proven to exist. So science is done the same way by rank atheists and the most orthodox Catholics or Christians you can find.

Philosophy of religion still struggles with the fact that God, supernaturalism, et al creates problems, self contradictions, and impossibilities, and so isn't an explanation for anything. When the philosophers demonstrate some such exists and can be dealt with in some fashion as to exclude error, then science might be interested.

Until then, science won't waste time or effort on what for centuries now has proved an empty fool's errand.

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[JonDarbyXIII]

First, welcome.

Next, I have a hard time accepting your assertion that there is a ton of science that supports theism. As far as I've seen the hard sciences show nothing that aligns with theism. Now, I don't discount the soft sciences--I'm quite fond of psychology--but waxing philosophical only gets us so far in dealing with the unknown. Many things can be postulated through philosophy, psychology, etc., but this doesn't always translate 1:1 into existence.

Atheism is not as you say an unscientific philosophy. A common theme you will see throughout this forum is that the whole basis for our position is that 1) there is nothing we have seen which would indicate that there is a god and 2) most of what we do see in the world would actually be what you would expect if there weren't a god. You say there is science that supports theism. We simply say, "show your work."

The burden of proof, therefore, is not on us because we are simply saying that we see no reason to believe the god hypothesis without evidence. You are correct that we don’t have the technology to rule out the human spirit. However, we also don't have the technology to rule out Bertrand Russel's tiny, orbiting teapot. Saying that you can't prove that there are pink-bearded fairies does not mean that there are, in fact, pink-bearded fairies.

[Surgenator]

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If most religions are started by people who have mental problems, wouldn't that mean all of them should be suspect of being flatly wrong?

Your fallacy here includes attaching a stigma, perhaps with the intent on jesting, which as already spoken in another post, is pointless in debate. Be civilized. No condescension. The first offense is perhaps tolerated but once educated, I will not respond to them. Hopefully I don’t have to repeat this point too much on this forum. Cursing, or attacking via using english terms that are derogatory, yet have no evidence as to their description, is a trick of sophistry, so, just pointing it out.

Mental “problems”. I don’t consider my gift problematic, however the awakening process has it’s initiatory roller coaster of lack of control when first breaking into other dimensional realms psychically, because the darkness has to be faced. It is literally the archetypal hero’s journey to go schizo. It isn’t bad. In fact, having demons, or facing possession and seeing dead people everywhere can be quite frightening, but when it is learned that they actually feed off of paranoia, one can simply master their fears and not attract the “evil” scary ones. Just your own fears bounced back to you really, that’s all the spirits do, until the fear is mastered.

So, this process of fear mastery can go a couple of directions, sometimes people loose complete control of their existence in this world and outsiders usually drug them up and call them crazy. This doesn’t mean their inner journeys are not valuable, or real in other reams even. Many people are simply antennas to the spirt world. Picking up all kinds of channels. I sure am. I call it the inner theater.

Other people can master this trance state, or “beat the devil” as Jesus did in trance for 40 days, (it told him to jump off a high building and he said no, among other psychotic things). You could consider Jesus schizo, in fact, many schizo’s think they are Jesus, or messianic. This is due to a unity with Jesus experience where one cannot tell the difference. I had one personally. It’s common. Other people raised in another environment, such as India, may have other deities unify with them. Or ancestral merging with deity is common too. Fairies, elves, gnomes, these beings are not from this world but can merge and interact with it. I pick them up on my antennae all the time. Channel…..which one was it again? So many channels. Cultural channels typically merge with people in highly altered states. They get “possessed” by deities from their ancestry. Been there done that. Sometimes they can be quite demonic and scary.

Getting through these channels and managing reception takes experience, but once balanced, open channeling occurs and revelations, prophecies, telepathy, knowledge that is impossible to get otherwise, is made known. In the past many of these things were written down and are known by many cultures as scriptures. Holy writ. Stories of people “seeing things other people don’t see” (hallucinations, according to the secular semantic) and “hearing things other’s don’t” etc schizo symptoms. What made holy writ holy was it’s practical application of it’s no brainer wisdom and also it’s record of miracles and legends that keep the magic alive and understanding of spirit from generation to generation. The ancients found it very important to pass on their beliefs about reality, so it’s worth taking a look.

However, one is foolish to underestimate the potential of the human brain. William James in a way compares the physical apparatus of the human brain to an antenna, which when stimulated or altered, can pick up information in other non earthly realms of existence. A scientific molecular look at the connection of matter and spirit. The way I see it is all is one anyway, it is all energy. No difference here. My brain is tuned differently than yours. I get channel 49 while you get 33. Oh well. Rather than the “I don’ like yer kind” mentality and “get to the back of the bus” one can detach their condescension and look objectively at people that view the world differently.

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LOL. There is no evidence for the existence of spirits. Asserting that you view into the spirit realm is not evidence.

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Your not making any sense here.

Don’t assert that I don’t make any sense when I do. The science by definition is continually agnostic, pushing the boundary of what it thinks it knows. People move ahead in science when they prove it wrong. Real science takes every branch into consideration, including human studies. Physics, big bang stuff, etc lines up with may ancient mystical teachings about the beginning and end of existence. Multidimensional possibilities are now being theorized by top physicists but currently they can’t all agree of their math. The double slit experiment is physics enigma that is common inner revelation to mystics. Reality is based on perception. If the tree falls in the forest and nobody is there, perhaps there is no sound, because nobody can hear it kind of thing. It shows inherent intelligence behind our universe. Strangely, it may be our own, because our own perception shapes it in the experiment.

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LOL. Mistics have as much understanding of the real world as a rock. They don't do anything but sit there taking up space. Everyonce in a while they are thrown at people who actually do some thinking.

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Can your spirit float into another room and see what is going on in there? If you can, then please do a simple experiment for me. Have a friend go into another room and write a number on a piece of paper. Your spirit will then go into that room and read what that number is. Then confirm with your friend if you got the number right or not. Do this at least 10 times and post the results here.

What you are mentioning here is magic. Magic is not to be witnessed or made known to the public. That is the basics, and this truth can also help with understanding that spirit in general likes to hide. The spirit realm is not only difficult to explain to mortals, but it is forbidden. It “breaks the rules” when miracles such as you are describing occur and doesn’t come without a price. It has an evil to it, mixed with good but don’t do it ever. I don’t do magic at all. It does occur though, like a scientific anomaly. It’s like a phenomena of nature that everything lines up in the universe and makes it happen. Really nothing magical at all, just nature doing it’s thing energetically speaking. Magic is when it just shouldn’t happen, it defies everything you know as real, yet it does. So, no, I won’t.

I can teach some basic pointers on how to witness it better though, kind of “it worked for me” things. Meditation techniques that are tested via inside observation. A good one is while on a road trip, as a passenger, particularly a long “boring, quiet” one, go into a trance. Zone out, no conversation, catatonic. Basically a meditative state. Then, practice this simple eyes open eyes closed exercise. Driving through a vast open area, such as farmland, get the feel with eyes closed of the energy, and point your inner eye, aka your attention or awareness, around locationally, search and feel around a bit for different energies. It may not be noticeable at first, but with a few attempts or hours in the car and practice, you can notice a difference between distant objects, such as hills, mountains, and if they are close, such as if you are driving thorough open field and then pass by a close hill with eyes closed and “see it” with the inner eye before you open your physical eyes, so you can tell where it is. Kind of Luke Skywalker kind of stuff, it actually works. Then, move to other objects, like large semi’s passing by. See them with your 6th sense which is kind of all the senses combined including emotions (very important to see or read emotional energy). You can sense basically what the Chinese call qi. Yin and yang energy. Up and down, far and near, open and closed, etc. You sense all of these polarities with your inner sight. Open and close your eyes over and over one experiment after another for hours. Then, with more advanced practice you can tap into the resonance, some call it arua, of others, emotional energy, and if you get really good at it you kinda become them and get the inner theater to show telepathically what is going on inside. We all share the same mind ultimately. That’s how you scientifically test it out, but again, science from the eastern semantic, not western.

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Who are you calling a mortal? I am a divine being (according to you). The fact that you cannot demonstrate magic means you have none. You are an imposter. You are trying to steal our magic knowledge for yourself. But we will not be fooled by your poor attempt to talk like us true divine beings.

You are mistaken.

I am not mistaken.

How’s that? Does that contribute to the discussion in any way?

Yes you are. Your lack of understanding why is also not surprising.

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First off, atheism is a philosophy. It is a position to the belief in God question. Second, testinomials are not scientific evidence.

Great, you see it as a philosophy! I am a philosopher, which the entire point is to disagree. My philosophy differs from yours. But I gotta argue it anyway to honor evolution of thought. If I am proven wrong, I am detached, it will only help strengthen my next position. I am open to change. However, I have to be sincere as to not waste my time. An insincere life is a waste. ]

So, philosophically, testimonials could be looked at as scientific evidence, if you don’t have the philosophy that automatically rejects them out of hand . Such a philosophy is lacking in logical balance, which would require that all be looked at by the scientist. If such testimonials were congruent, as had been discovered and written extensively about by Jung and others, then theories as to why can be developed, such as archetypes. That one works for me, It is science and spirit mixed.

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Sorry, but I mistyped. I meant to say "atheism is NOT a philosophy. It is a position to the belief in God question."

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At least you got one thing right, religious texts are fairy tails. Lets just end on a happy note.

Semantics. Fairies are real my friend! But yet, mostly, they live in your head. What makes them magical is the live in other people’s heads too, and can play with people like chess, setting up their lives by getting in their heads unbeknownst and steering them subconsciously behind the scenes. Casting spells. They are deities, you know, just like Jesus or Buddha. Spiritual Confucius is a good way to interpret their poetry. Simply wise sayings, their spin on it is entertaining, and if you notice the wisdom is directed in stories that the younger generation likes, kind of like “raise them in the word” type stuff if you were to compare it to Christianity. If you learn the morals of the fairy tales you will actually be quite wise. Same goes for all stories deities tell, and boy do they tell stories! Many people left Jesus when he said his disciples have to eat his flesh and drink his blood, but goodness, people, he wasn’t speaking literally! Symbols only. The universe eats itself for eternity. Death eats life and life creates death. Gotta get the point, not “oh my goodness what a fool for masking eternal wisdom in something offensive to the unwise”. This masking of the truth in parable and story and the reality behind it only to be perceived by those that “have ears to hear it” the deity of Israel did over and over. It’s how they do their poetry. Other prophets wrote about their interactions with other poetic imagery, including puffing up stories like Samson killing 1000 people with the jawbone of an ass, etc. Larger than life heros to which can be looked at archetypal rather than “this literally occurred”. What can you learn from it was the focus anciently, especially since it was oral lore. It wasn’t even written down until a long time later for the most part. It grew with each telling surely, but the stories are about each of us, they symbolize us in our lives. They are patterns, symbols, that is their value. They have applicable wisdom for everyday life.

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Faires are as real as my 4217 Olypic gold medals that I got while wearing several different disguises. It was very tough switching between Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce to Yao Ming. Thankfully I stocked up on the shrinking and growing potions from my adventures in Trader Joes on the Himalayan mountains.

[schizo pantheist]

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Apparently, some are more interested at short jabs rather than reading. If a book offends you, then go to another thread. I look at this kind of like a blog of streams of ideas, to be critically bounced off of others. Blogs, threads, forums discussions, can often time evolve into publishable material, so it is actually intelligent to put effort into the length and quality of the ideas expressed. Say I was to write a book on something I am interested in thinking about, a certain topic. Would a short sentence do? Why not basically have the book evolve sorta open source on the internet, then to be organized later if a good idea evolves from the discussion that is worth sharing the world. The work put into typing is not useless from my perspective, so if you find the work of reading laborious and painful then perhaps this isn't the thread for you.

This sir, is simply a jest. Illogical nonsense insult. No responses to similar taunts. Contribute to the discussion don't tar and feather and curse due to ignorance. What do you actually think about the ideas I have mentioned? Or do you think? Ha ha I won't jest back.

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Hello there, welcome

I'm afraid I don't accept anything as credible unless it can be demonstrated scientifically (I don't just mean in a lab, I mean independently and with proper conditions). So I have no idea what most of the things you are saying actually mean. If you have some way that I could reproduce them, I'm all ears

Personally I don't understand what the point of pantheism is, but I see no problem in believing everything is god, or god is in everything. Again, to me it makes no scientific sense. But it seems fairly harmless.

Hope you enjoy the forum! Those opinions are just my own, and due to my overly analytical nature. I'd deny my own wife's existence if she left the room for 5 seconds.

It depends on how you define science. Also what lab, and can that laboratory work be looked at without bias? Stanford paranormal studies for example?

The best lab is the human experiencer, and this can be tested perhaps not with concrete laboratory and molecular science but with observation, statistics, trends, patterns in human thinking and experience throughout history. The science of human perception and awareness.

Are you saying human awareness is not worth studying scientifically? The neruoscientists can't tell what awareness is. No hard science can measure it, but it an be observed through many subjective experiencers who can then be interviewed, tested, or polled somehow and statistically analyzed, and the data has value that way.

Are these areas of research worth looking into? I find a general apathy with atheist scientists who reject any spirit stuff out of hand. Not worth their time and effort because it "already" is pointless, simply not worth true. Don't bother coming up with methods to measure it is where the prejudice and ignorance leads. It hasn't been fed enough scientific energy in the form of funding projects to hit mainstream in my opinion.

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"Everything is god" is functionally equivalent to "nothing is god."

E=MC2 If it makes you happy to call the universe 'god,' knock yourself out.

As we used to say in my hippy-dippy tripping days, "So. You're God. I'm God. Everyone is God.

So who's going to do the dishes?"

Well spoken. We can agree philosophically here. The semantic of "God" kinda doesn't really fit pantheism does it? However it doesn't fit atheism ether.

Goddess does the dishes. Ha ha just kidding she makes me do them.

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Everything is God? So was I giving birth to a deity when I dropped an Indian-food-fueled steaming log of shi-- I mean "god" in my toilet--I mean, in my "god", last night?

Also well spoken. Sh-t is God. In india there are people who see absolutely no separation and eat sh-t as their sacrament, also human flesh, and even glass. They are called aghori sadhus. Holy people. They worship death and everything in contrast to what is considered normal. They break every taboo because there really is no separation, all is one Spirit, even what they eat, spirit eats itself, like the ouroboros, or the sacrament Jesus compared to his flesh and blood, he being the pantheistic universe itself.

Also, sh-t is a holy contemplation of the cycle of entropy and corruption and rebirth the universe goes through. I find myself on the toilet much longer than the original turd finds necessary sometimes with cycle of life epiphanies, including the axis mundi spiral function that occurs when I push "flush". It goes to the earth to become life again and the magical cycle continues.

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Don't touch your god to the god. You'll get god all over the god, and then god will have to clean it up.

Godda be more detailed than that.

[schizo pantheist]

I am new to the forum and decided to challenge the wisdom of the most educated and sincere atheist,

Well then...

I am a pantheist, which mean everything is deity.

Well... ok... you have very low standards.

It is a broad definition. It is a universal mind with everything connected, sentient is the point. Atheism typically denies the sentience of the universe, which is what makes my way different.

A true form of spiritual science, or real science, that includes more dimensional possibilities than 3d. More in line with physics, actually.

I strongly doubt that your subjective interpretation of your senses as multidimensional, or the trivial fact that our senses have more than three independent sensors which could be counted as dimensions of perception, has anything but a superficial similarity to the speculative ideas about higher dimensions as they appear in theoretical physics.

It’s simple logic really. My own perception deserves interpretation, and multidimensional is simply the word choice used to describe the experience of sight into other realms. Seriously, what english term really fits? I have a hard time defining it really. Spirit realm fits, but then one could argue whether or not spirits actually exist, since they get recycled eventually too like everything else apparently. That’s what I get on my channel anyway.

As to it fitting into theoretical physics, I am not that original in this line of thinking. It is a common school of thought actually. Many mystics have had inner revelations that harmonize with what scientists are discovering about the nature of matter. The mystic knowledge however is thousands of years old, whereas the modern science is barely decades. Don’t brush aside the thousands of years of wisdom from our elders as if they were superstitious idiots. They were quite wise for the most part you now. Common trick of the modern generation is to not give credit where due to the older.

I fully support and believe in evolution, using it against me is a waste of time.

Umm... ok... I don't know what you mean by that

Meaning I’m not some fundamentalist creationist who believes the world was created in 6 days, however I will argue that Moses or somebody had a true vision of the evolution of the universe, beginning from darkness and then following 6 yom in Hebrew which means period of time often translated as “day” but in an alphabet with only 3000 words many are used in different contexts and this is one. 6 time periods is more accurate, or the process divided by 6 chapters, actually 7 which is an ancient magical number based on astrology. The seventh day the masculine/feminine goddess/god rested. It describes the entire process from the big bang, darkness, to the creation of land, the evolution of life from aquatic to land dwellers and everything. Quite scientific, except it’s put in mystical poetic form because it is the revelation of a schizo.

The main meat of my position is that there is a ton of science out there that supports theism, especially non dual pantheism such as I use to define myself.

If you, as you do above, define deity so broadly that a pebble qualifies, then yes, there is scientific evidence for theism. You just don't learn much new from changing the meaning of words.

Semantics, yes, the problem of linguistics. I start my analysis with definitions of terms like a legal document to be clear so they won’t be minced, however, if you wish to challenge the definition that is the entire point of my argument. I define reality as thus. You disagree. Ok, use logic and show a better way then.

It is not found in the hard sciences much, with mathematics and weights and measures, however it can be found over and over again in psychology and philosophy. Particularly, I find atheism an unscientific philosophy, if it does not include the science of countless documented mystical experiences and spiritual emergencies that have happened for millions of years and have formulated the worlds most poetic religious renditions of the divine, from cave art up until modern cannon.

It does include the science of these mystical experiences. It's just that they're in peoples' heads and belong into the realm of neurology and psychology, not physics.

That is the problem with separating science into such distinct realms. You see, if there is no realm to realm communication in the world of science they will never reach the truth. Sciences disagree with each other, likely because they aren’t talking, and usually this is because of the personal philosophy of the scientists.

If what is in people’s heads also is similar to what physicists have found, then perhaps a thorough investigation of the subjective mythological poetries describing the inner realms connection to this outer realm is in order, looking for consistency and patterns. If the human body is really an apparatus for whatever you semantically term awareness, spirit is one word that could be used, then certainly it can be utilized as an instrument to gain more awareness via altering it’s ability to pick up on information from the collective reality. As a schizo, I can definitely say my awareness is altered. Permanent too. It’s altered from normal status doesn’t mean the perceptions don’t have place in reality, especially when the perceptions prove themselves, such as clairvoyance actually happening.

So, I find this basic logical argument applies to atheists: the burden of proof is upon you to show your philosophy has merit.

No.

Why not? You have a philosophy. What evidence do you bring to the table to show it’s validity?

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The best lab is the human experience.

There's your problem right there. Do a little research on neurology, our perceptions and the fallibility of the human brain. You seek truth from personal experience, but the truth is that our personal experiences are just flawed reflections of reality at their very best. Study after study shows that our brains are very poor at actually determining and understanding what is going on around us.

I agree to a point. However, neurology is limited. I prefer a more broad perspective that takes into consideration the fallibility of the brain, and rather than take human perceptions literally, due to this fallibility, find patterns in human cognition that are consistent with scientific thought, such as the origin of the universe.

My experience of the spiritual is "I can't tell you exactly how it is but I will paint a poetic picture that symbolically helps you understand it" -Spirit. I find this consistent with religious founders and the myths they created. I look at them as masterpiece works of art by creator, channelled through a human in rapture. I don't take any myth literally for this reason, they are all only symbols of how it is. What can be learned from the symbol or pattern is what is important. And, mythological patterns are found in nature. Archetypes. Humans can sense the symbolic nature of the universe instinctually it seems. It's set up that way. People recognize archetypal patterns. Astrology is a good example of connecting the archetypes with the outside world. It really is that interconnected is the astrologist's argument. Our very awareness and experience of earth life is pre determined by universal energies patterned in the heavens. Our soul's journey is mapped out by fate they say. Our very personalities are the result of universal forces alchemically mixing together in different energetic recipes. Perhaps that is the definition of individual spirit. The energy mix.

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"Everything is god" is functionally equivalent to "nothing is god."

Exactly.





If everything is a deity, then nothing is special relative to anything else in this regard and the term 'deity' becomes meaningless as a label.

Pretty much. That is why I say the word magic is irrelevant too if it is simply a natural phenomenon.
I've heard people argue that the buddhist definition of deity is like this. Kind of meaningless. You can't really call it any kind of theism.

However, the mystical and prophetic are not incompatible with the natural, because it's all deity, and normal stuff. No difference.

[KUSA]

I am new to the forum and decided to challenge the wisdom of the most educated and sincere atheist, one who would bet their life on it, as many religious people do.

I am a pantheist, which mean everything is deity. The keyboard is deity, the speck of dust on the screen is deity. I am deity, and so are you, same one. Monotheistic in a way, but includes all forms of deity following what science terms the subconscious collective. Shared mind, so to speak.

I am schizophrenic, which will stop many right here due to stigma, but keep in mind, although termed the “mad scientist” disease it doesn’t mean we don’t get it right. You know, Einstein had bi polar manic symptoms, including out of this world ideas, and many worked. John Nash won the Nobel Prize and had many unseen friends.

My inner experiences are not unique, but I have studied anthropology, science, history, to the point that I have found most religions were started by people like me, with other worldly senses. Prophets, wizards, shamans, medicine people, witch doctors, trance mediums, etc. All of us have multidimensional senses. I see into many realms, personally. According to statistics, 1% of people are full on schizophrenic, whilst 15% or so see faces in other realms super imposed on walls in trance or when they close their eyes, or occasionally hear inner voices. It’s super common. Emotional “psychoses” is even more common. Manic religious awakening experiences are documented all over.

So, my argument has many angles. First, this has nothing to do with religion. I have inner spirit guides, which basically teach a form of agnosticism. You never really know, in other words, what reality really is, but you can get a lot of truth. A true form of spiritual science, or real science, that includes more dimensional possibilities than 3d. More in line with physics, actually.

I fully support and believe in evolution, using it against me is a waste of time. I am in the spirit realm all the time, and basically “over here” it is survival of the fittest as well. Spirit realm is like the dream or thought realm. Only the best ideas survive. The others go extinct, never happen. Thoughts are beings, from what I have learned. God = mind. One mind. Thoughts being created and destroyed. They are alive, like people. We are all thoughts in the same multilayered dream we like to call reality. Thoughts that go extinct in the mind of deity provide energy, like food, to fuel thoughts that need to be the next thing, filling the gap of necessity, like the market supply and demand.

Don’t know what death is yet though, not knowing it. Damn spirit realm never tells really what it is. It remains a mystery. Perhaps even after you die. I have no idea what happens before or after death. My philosophy is to focus on the practical here and now. However here and now for me is in many realms not included in many other perceivable realities by earthlings.

Animals, on the other hand, may have multidimensional senses like my schizo antenna. Or insects. Premonitions have often been recorded such as animals knowing earthquakes before hand due to bizarre behavior. Who knows, we are only able to record a tiny amount of reality with our primitive few hundred years old scientific technological instruments. We really don’t know what is out there.

The main meat of my position is that there is a ton of science out there that supports theism, especially non dual pantheism such as I use to define myself. It is not found in the hard sciences much, with mathematics and weights and measures, however it can be found over and over again in psychology and philosophy. Particularly, I find atheism an unscientific philosophy, if it does not include the science of countless documented mystical experiences and spiritual emergencies that have happened for millions of years and have formulated the worlds most poetic religious renditions of the divine, from cave art up until modern cannon. Fairy tales included. Fairies are the ancient religion of my ancestors, and to be honest with you, I 100% believe they exist in a multidimensional realm. Ancestral deities is what they are. Their stories are meant to teach wisdom, not literalism. The Bible is similar to an excellent fairy tale. I see all religious texts this way. Don’t really believe them, but if you don’t believe and apply the wisdom they teach you are a fool and will suffer needlessly for your “evil”. Basically, along the evolutionary lines, good = smart and evil = dumb. Survival of the most intelligent, whether that be life form or other entity, animal, plant, anything that survives has inherent wisdom. It is wise enough, or the best and most current idea of the divine, to survive the current conditions and continues to adapt to change, like a mind changes.

So, I find this basic logical argument applies to atheists: the burden of proof is upon you to show your philosophy has merit. How, with all of the evidence from subjective experiencers, and access to your own mystical experiences if you simply try them, to scientifically test via observation, are you able to say for certainty that atheism is correct? I find it sincerely close minded. Dull. Not open to the mysterious possibilities, and continually pushing similar arguments such as “prove it in a lab”. The best lab is the human experience. I’m sorry atheist, but we simply don’t have the technology to rule out the human spirit, the millions of years of observers and philosophers on it separated by geography yet similar in their thought patterns, the uniform collective archetypes that not only existed in history as deities but are equally accessible now in mystical states of transcendence. Modern is not less mystical than ancient. Modern mystic here to tell you about it!

With formal curtesy, put up your dukes, atheist.

Oh, and ps, I actually do believe we are all eaten by a flying "spagetti monster" called a black hole eventually, due to the scientific process of spaghettification. What is not known is if things magically of mysteriously disappear from reality in the outside universe due to the concept of missing information. Time space vortexes, where reality warps or perhaps portals into the black hole. Physics gets really crazy. :fsm-grin: Time could possibly stop, so perhaps it's the beginning and end of time as is mentioned by the mystics. Eternity, in other words.

You are whacked right out of your skull man.

[schizo pantheist]

Schizophrenic? Meh, I guess that just means I'll have the pleasure of arguing with all of the voices in your head....none of which, mind you, are likely to be Einstein or Nash. Carry on.

Yes you can argue all you want. We, I mean I, love debate. It’s like Gollum I swear. We don’t really know all the answers, but we can offer something for you…..

It’s all one unified being really, but anyway.

You don't have other-worldly senses (and neither do/did they). You have a chronic, severe, and disabling brain disorder. Whether or not the ubiquitous "they" were toiling under the same weight is, frankly, beyond either of us to determine.

I do indeed have a 6th sense, which is basically a multi layered and multi purpose instinctual sense. Your assertion doesn’t take into consideration my experiences of my spirit guides actually being right about things, such as telepathy, future prophecy, and the list goes on and on. Spirit proves itself, it doesn’t need a mortal to prove it, and it does so just as Jesus said, from the inside out. The outside is shown after the inside with clairvoyance though. Inner dreams and vision become outer realities. That’s the proof.

As for brain disorder, you fit the archaic psychiatrical philosophical category that is proving a severe detriment to society, by denying the wisdom of thousands of years of elders. Viewing it as a disorder inappropriately stigmatizes it and is designed with the demonic knee jerk spell reaction of “I don’t understand it therefore it must be stupid” trick. Ignorance. “Don’t take it seriously enough to give it a scientific investigation” trick. Demon nonsense. I don’t believe nonsense, personally.

Ah, but how many of those angles are right angles, Mr. Nash? I jest. You don't have inner spirit guides, again, your mind is malfunctioning. Similarly, what's going to follow is unlikely to be truth, but even a broken clock is right twice a day..... so I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

If you repeat yourself enough do you expect to hypnotize me into your paradigm without offering me any evidence? Do better atheist. Evolve beyond logical fallacies such as assertions without evidence, whether that be hard science or just logical philosophy.

[Your "spirit realm isn't "like a dream", it -is- a dream, or the mechanical equivalent thereof. Need I continue?

Again, disrespect for the wisdom of the elders. I find that immature, to be honest. Grow up. The ancients described a unity between the dream world and our outside reality. Dream catchers of american natives, for example. Or, the dreams recorded in the holy texts like the Bible. All kinds of dreams are mentioned where entities visit and offer prophetic counsel.

What a limited view to say those thousands years of culturally separated geographically people’s history which has such similar ways of viewing the world, such as the dream and spirit realm are the same, they are simply realms, or worlds, as my guides call them, has no validity to it? It’s an anthropological consensus among cultures. Dream worlds are literal.

For example, the same spirit guides I have around me during the day visit me in dreams and instruct me. To me I call this dream work, or dream journeying. The key is to become lucid and master of that world. Dreams are often run by spirits, like a holographic show you are part of. They pull all the strings. The purpose generally is to learn something. I’ve had repetitive dreams that have kept coming back until I learn the lesson offered. I have had dreams that have had people and strange events in them that reflected what shortly came to pass in my outside waking reality. I saw them in the dream world before the real world. This is what I do all the time. It’s the psychic’s world. Inner world. See it inside before you see it outside. It often reflects inside symbolically, like the dream has a plot that isn’t literal but ties into a waking reality or event that occurs. The spirit dream master was simply teaching. In the Bible the dream masters offered prophecies and warnings, by shapeshifting into angelic beings and having face to face discussions with people in dreams.

In the Bible Joel prophesies with poetry saying “your young men will have visions, and your old men dream dreams”.

Death is the cessation of life. You're welcome.

Apparently you are not a not a hamlet fan. To be or not to be, that is the question you fail to ask.

Don’t contemplate death simply give it a trite definition and be done with it. Not wisdom. Sorry. The philosopher Shakespeare is wiser.

Neither you, nor Einstein, nor Nash, nor wizards, nor all the creepy crawly bugs on this entire globe have "multidimensional senses" in the manner you seem to be intent upon using that term. You aren't receiving any dispatches from the future, and neither is an ant.

Again the fallacy of negative assertion without offering anything to the discussion. No evidence to support you. I say yes, you say no, and that is all you have.

Why are you so close minded to senses described by the sages of time?

As far as I'm aware there isn't an ounce of science (not even in your two favorites) that supports anything even on the periphery of theism, you haven't presented any here, and so you have no point. Feel free to bring any of this science to my attention, if you think you've missed anything.

I define science as taking into consideration history, and the subjective cognition of humans, which you don’t apparently. We disagree on semantics, the word science defined basically.

I doubt that anyone disputes the existence of fairy stories. It's the fairies themselves which are thin on the ground. You are not descended from fairies, no one is, there is no such thing.

Again, how trite. No fairies huh? You have no evidence to support you and again there is lore, myth, and wisdom that disagrees. From my perspective, I know others that channel fairies, the ancient deities of their ancestors. They have common characteristics that we have independently become “familiar” with and have verified objectively discussing it. They are just as real as any of the other cultural archetypes. They are accessible from the inner realms. Fairy land is within you. No surprise either, since fairies have been defined as spirits, so they live in the spiritual world, which sages like Jesus say is indeed within you. Just because you can’t personally see your ancestral deities doesn’t mean others can’t. They are spirit trainers basically, tricksters too.

The excellence of the bible -as a fairy tale- is a matter of opinion. I think it's hit or miss, personally. As crib notes for life, a users manual, it's garbage. I do not employ it;s advice or "wisdom", and this hasn't seemed to cause any needless suffering in my life. I'm skeptical that you have any authority in the matter of whats smart or dumb, good or evil.

User’s manual? Well most fairy tales I have seen are mostly intended for kids, unless you get deep into mythological studies. It’s the wisdom of “everything I need to know I learned in kindergarten” kind of stuff. Fairies teach things like not to lie, and other basic 5 year old morals. The also veil magic in their teachings, which is inner wisdom that the stories only hint at, which when they show up in the inner theater, they can fill you in on the details as the real meaning of the fairy tales. The Bible is similar. Angels visit people and explain it, also an enlightened state of mind via the holy spirit is promised to offer hidden interpretations for whom it initiates into the mysteries. Holy spirit = kundalini awakening in my opinion. Kundalini awakening and psychosis due to spirit possession and delusion commonly go together. It is synonymous with shaman sickness, when the black spirits torment the initiate shaman with insanity and illness, then heal after the hazing is complete, resulting in above average sanity and health.

As for smart, dumb, good, evil, that is simply the process of natural selection. It is all relative the way I look at it. Whatever fills the gap of universal demand, basically, is the next step in evolution. The push to change is the constant search of what is good, or promotes life and is smart, and what is evil or doesn’t really serve any purpose and which would be better not existing. The natural selection process filters out the good from the bad. Smart lives dumb dies. Smart ideas survive, dumb ones should be pointed out and corrected. So no, I am not a moralist that claims any kind of static good and evil philosophy, it always shifts and adapts. Whatever works is how the universe determines good. It is quite practical. It has to work for the long term too otherwise it will just phase quickly into extinction as a kind of “bad idea” creator once had.

Atheism isn't a philosophy, full stop.

Well, correct me then, it looks like your are arguing semantics. If it isn’t a philosophy, then it certainly creates philosophical paradigms like “multidimensional awareness is a brain disorder only”. Defend your philosophy rather than just contrast it with mine.

[Silver]

At least he aptly named himself schizo.

[schizo pantheist]

There is no god. Everything is Easter Bunny. Isn't argument by empty assertion fun?

Well, the funny part about the easter bunny is it is really all about the sex goddess whom the word Easter came from. Bunny is spirit speak for sex, breed like rabbits archetype. Pagan spring celebration. Fertility Goddess worship. So, I actually do believe in the easter bunny goddess. She is as real as fairies or Jesus to me. Actually sex Goddess Ishtar is very similar to Jesus archetypically speaking. The story follows similar themes.

Everything is Ishtar bunny because Goddess is everything, obviously, except the male half of the universe. She gets the female and male "confused" (well, she know's what she is doing) sometimes though and traps herself in male bodies in her religion. Go figure. Gay sex slave priests. Think of that next time easter comes around.....

---

I drank god from a can, then I pissed him back in the toilet where he belongs. But wait a minute, the toilet is also god.

Sacred and profane together. Beautiful expression of how it is.

---

I am a pantheist, which mean everything is deity. The keyboard is deity, the speck of dust on the screen is deity. I am deity, and so are you, same one. Monotheistic in a way, but includes all forms of deity following what science terms the subconscious collective. Shared mind, so to speak.

The main meat of my position is that there is a ton of science out there that supports theism, especially non dual pantheism such as I use to define myself. It is not found in the hard sciences much, with mathematics and weights and measures, however it can be found over and over again in psychology and philosophy. Particularly, I find atheism an unscientific philosophy, if it does not include the science of countless documented mystical experiences and spiritual emergencies that have happened for millions of years and have formulated the worlds most poetic religious renditions of the divine, from cave art up until modern cannon. Fairy tales included. Fairies are the ancient religion of my ancestors, and to be honest with you, I 100% believe they exist in a multidimensional realm. Ancestral deities is what they are. Their stories are meant to teach wisdom, not literalism. The Bible is similar to an excellent fairy tale. I see all religious texts this way. Don’t really believe them, but if you don’t believe and apply the wisdom they teach you are a fool and will suffer needlessly for your “evil”. Basically, along the evolutionary lines, good = smart and evil = dumb. Survival of the most intelligent, whether that be life form or other entity, animal, plant, anything that survives has inherent wisdom. It is wise enough, or the best and most current idea of the divine, to survive the current conditions and continues to adapt to change, like a mind changes.

So, I find this basic logical argument applies to atheists: the burden of proof is upon you to show your philosophy has merit. How, with all of the evidence from subjective experiencers, and access to your own mystical experiences if you simply try them, to scientifically test via observation, are you able to say for certainty that atheism is correct? I find it sincerely close minded. Dull. Not open to the mysterious possibilities, and continually pushing similar arguments such as “prove it in a lab”. The best lab is the human experience. I’m sorry atheist, but we simply don’t have the technology to rule out the human spirit, the millions of years of observers and philosophers on it separated by geography yet similar in their thought patterns, the uniform collective archetypes that not only existed in history as deities but are equally accessible now in mystical states of transcendence. Modern is not less mystical than ancient. Modern mystic here to tell you about it!

I am in consternation about your first paragraph. You claim that everything is a deity. How can everything, including inanimate objects, be deities? A deity is "divine character or nature, especially that of the Supreme Being; divinity. " Please explain this.

That is the mystery of the monotheistic nature of pantheism. It’s like deity is the universal intelligence behind reality, so it can take many polytheistic forms, typically for the purpose of instructing on a certain aspect of reality. The Hindu and American Native religions are good examples of this. Natives believe in different powers, power animals represent the spiritual forces that interplay, and animals can be the shapeshifter form deity takes to instruct about it’s different facets a sort of polytheistic way. In Hinduism, powers are represented, or spiritual forces from the same deity, as different deities with different mythological teachings to offer. Hinduism is clear though, despite it’s polytheism, that there is one Supreme Reality transcending all deities. In Buddhism deities as spiritual powers and instructors are transcended, as they were by the Buddha during his enlightenment under the boddhi tree. Buddha is “above deities” because he mastered all the lesson’s those power instructors have to offer. He became the everythingness of pantheistic thought the way I see it.

The way that even inanimate objects even can be defined as deity is simply because they are composed of the same universal life force energy that could be defined as the pantheistic deity to begin with. Like the force in Star Wars, (which is based on ancient myth according to expert Joseph Campbell, as well as the author).

The source and end of all creation is the same universal sentient energy. Qi basically. All of existence is simply manifestations of it. Existence is simply the body of the divine, housing eternal sentience. Kind of like Shiva Shakti in Hinduism. Shakti is the force that provides movement, or life, to the material realm, as it’s body or house. They are one though. They are really the same being, kind of a hermaphrodite. God/Goddess. Twin gender forms of deity are common in myth, like the male and female image divinity poetically paints itself as in Genesis.

The deities teach “look at me, reality is kind of like my story, or archetype”. In fact many look to statues perhaps because they were or are illiterate. A deity statue tells the story of the deity symbolically, without using words. In trance people often see these statues as possessed by their deity. Empowered by it, kind of like the Jews with their relics. So many deities to learn from, so many cultures, but really just like Jesus said he is the vine we are the branches, it’s all the same plant. Masks of the same God as Campbell put it.

Unknown source once said it is like 3 blind people all touching an elephant which is defined as the supreme being. One says divinity is like a wall, touching only the elephant’s side. Another says it is like a snake, holding the elephant’s tail, another like trees, feeling the elephant’s huge feet. Experiencers often don’t see the whole picture of the divine and therefore focus on certain aspects. Or they focus on one aspect as their way of life where another focuses on another deity as theirs. Praying to different “Gods” so to speak, but really just aligning with differrent powers stemming from the same One.

There is a static aspect to the inner realm that Carl Jung pointed out, which is why he termed it universal. It actually exists in collective awareness, subconsciously and who is to say that the collective unconscious isn’t really the spirit realm. We don’t know how it works really. Science doesn’t know. Jung offer’s a working theory. Best one I have seen so far.

Your second paragraph is also a bit abstruse. You say "there is a ton of science out there that supports theism" and then you go on about philosophies and spirituality. An atheist to me is someone who rejects the theistic claims for a supernatural god that defies the laws of physics. Social and physical sciences cannot prove that a supernatural god, as in an anthropomorphic deity with magical powers that sits up in the clouds, exists. I think you're misusing the term, "theism." It's defined as "the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism )." Some religions don't believe God is a supernatural deity that lives in material reality. Instead, they believe in a philosophical god, which atheists (depending on which one you speak to) don't necessarily disagree with.

Can you please address these problems?

I expected to run into the same semantical argument over and over again about the definition of the word science before I came to this forum. In college English class one of the first things it teaches about writing is starting by defining terms.

Perhaps from the way you look at it theism is the wrong way to look at it. I figured pantheist fits my philosophy, and it falls into the theistic category, though it is somewhat of a grey area when everything is God.

Deities are anthropomorphic due to the fact that they have to use some kind of form that relates to human experience. Really, deity can take whatever form teaches the lesson. It’s all the same shapeshifting deity though, from the highest perspective. From a lower perspective of separation, such as the teaching that there is a difference between you and I, subject and object, it is a bunch different energies working together but that are separate in awareness from each other. In higher realms, there are multi beings, aware of many experiences at once. Like a multi being, millions under them, or unified with them. Collective awareness beings in other dimensions basically. They could be considered cultural deities, rulers of the myth/spell they created as spiritual powers. That’s why when a NDE happens people generally see the deity of their culture, whether its Jesus, if they believe the God spell, or Buddha etc. at the end of the tunnel. The meet the power that has been behind the scenes as a multi being that is literally them the whole time and unify with it, becoming the multi being but really, they were it the whole time. More like just waking up to multi awareness, expanded consciousness, kind of like the gatekeeper in the modern movie Thor, he watches the souls of trillions. Higher being.

[Creed of Heresy]

Take your fucking meds. You sound like my former room-mate. He was a schizo, too, and he ended up in jail when he had a psychotic break and attacked me with a knife.

Schizophrenia and bipolar conditions are wildly different. One induces hallucinations and delusions of grandeur, unwarranted paranoia, and psychosis. The other is an instability of the emotions and social personality.

You need medication. And therapy. Badly.

Oh wait you're banned.

Good.