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The fallacy of "The virtue of the oppressed"
#1
The fallacy of "The virtue of the oppressed"
OP/ED.........

Yes there are humans who have been oppressed in past history and there are humans today that are oppressed. There needs to be a wider understanding of our collective species history of ALL human suffering.

When, for example, a Muslim living in the west, who is not violent rightfully complains about profiling. Or when a Kurdish Christian in Iraq rightfully points to Muslims slaughtering them. Or when Jews in Europe complain about discrimination. Or when atheists in America complain about being the most distrusted minority in America. They are all correct, but unfortunately our species still cant see our collective suffering and hide behind it to avoid criticism and also us it to set up taboos.

America's history is full of oppression of minorities. Blacks were slaves, women could not vote, and gays are still discriminated against. Days after 9/11 a Sikh was murdered mistaken for a Muslim. Buddhists in Burma treat Muslims like shit. America put innocent Japanese Americans in prison camps.

Jews in Israel also hid behind the Holocaust, which NO SANE HUMAN should ever deny. They steel land from Palestinians and Gaza, just like America drove Natives off of land.


China and Japan and the Orient has also never been free from tribalism and violence. The point in saying all this is that WE, my fellow humans, WE, are ALL minorities, and majorities depending on time frame and geographics. No amount of RIGHTFULLY pointing out human suffering and the cruelty that humans inflict on other humans, will ever change the fact that we ARE the same species.

I am simply tired of my species, which can be capable of great empathy getting stuck on labels only to forget the lesson of ALL human suffering is not a billboard to promote one label over another, but a lesson to HUMANITY on what not to do to each other.

The lesson of slavery and native Americans is the lesson of the Holocaust is the lesson of gays is the lesson of Palestine is the lesson of Hiroshima. It is our species failure to see that all we have is each other.

There cannot be any "virtue of the oppressed" for to hide behind any wrong that was done to us, sets our species up to turn around and do it to someone else in the future.

Sagan told us what we need to do and we really need to stop thinking any label makes our suffering the patent holder of virtue. Suffering is suffering. I hold the position of "atheist", but before that label and most importantly I am a human first. Labels do not preclude us from being cruel because that is what evolution produces. It always will. The good side of our species is our ability to be more self aware of our importance in all this long term. I am with Ann Frank and Malala and King Jr in our empathy. I merely think humans simply need to put our common ground as the focus and not treat suffering as a unique patent that only one label can identify with.

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#2
RE: The fallacy of "The virtue of the oppressed"
I do agree with most that has been written but what's your point?

Something important is that not every group's problem is equal, issues of different groups cannot be equated and should be dealt with differently. Suffering is bad, but different suffering requires different measures
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#3
RE: The fallacy of "The virtue of the oppressed"
(January 28, 2015 at 9:42 am)Blackout Wrote: I do agree with most that has been written but what's your point?

Something important is that not every group's problem is equal, issues of different groups cannot be equated and should be dealt with differently. Suffering is bad, but different suffering requires different measures

Who is saying that? I am saying if we are going to get to maximize peace, we cannot turn our own suffering as some sort of patent. Our species has always displayed the ability of cruelty and compassion.

There are lagit people depending on location that have a right to bitch, then there are majorities that treat criticism and blasphemy as oppression when the reality is they are hiding behind issues of tradition and religion to allow themselves or others cover to do those horrible things.

There are Jews and Muslims and Christians and Buddhists and atheists in the world that are harmed by those around them. The there are others who falsely play victim.
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#4
RE: The fallacy of "The virtue of the oppressed"
I'd settle for minimal peace right about now. Too much fucking shooting going on.
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#5
RE: The fallacy of "The virtue of the oppressed"
(January 28, 2015 at 1:50 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I'd settle for minimal peace right about now. Too much fucking shooting going on.

Yep.

It's funny Muslims in France rightfully bitch about discrimination and profiling. Jews also claim they have to move back to Israel because of discrimination. And France's right wing nutbags are the one's doing it. I'd say if either Muslims or Jews want better treatment then maybe both need to consider your treatment is a result of France seeing your childish beef in the east and simply don't want that shit spreading there.

But yea, there is too much tribal crap going on and religion really looks more like the Bloods and Kripts and all sides don't see that they are simply acting on a very base evolutionary instinct.
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#6
RE: The fallacy of "The virtue of the oppressed"
Quote:Who is saying that? I am saying if we are going to get to maximize peace, we cannot turn our own suffering as some sort of patent. Our species has always displayed the ability of cruelty and compassion.
Yes.
Quote:There are lagit people depending on location that have a right to bitch, then there are majorities that treat criticism and blasphemy as oppression when the reality is they are hiding behind issues of tradition and religion to allow themselves or others cover to do those horrible things.
Who are these majorities? Christians in the US?

Quote:There are Jews and Muslims and Christians and Buddhists and atheists in the world that are harmed by those around them. The there are others who falsely play victim.

Who and how do we distinguish?
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#7
RE: The fallacy of "The virtue of the oppressed"
I'd say the Kurdish Christians and non Christians living in Iraq being slaughtered by Isis including other Muslims are oppressed. I'd say it sucks for Muslim and Arab Israeli citizens to have to fear their police and military. I'd say minority Muslims and non Muslims living in Saudi Arabia or Iran have to fear the society they live in.

I'd say Tibet Buddhists have to fear China. I'd say Muslims living in Burma have to fear Buddhists. I'd say Christians and Muslims in African nations have to fear each other depending.

Case by case. The rule would be, if you live in a place where you wont get arrested for dissent, or the worst you have to fear is a "fuck you" or "bullshit" or "that is not true", and no one is having you arrested and you are not being chased down by mobs, then you do not get to use being offended to claim oppression.

Having your claims or beliefs insulted or criticized is not a death sentence, it merely means you got offended.
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#8
RE: The fallacy of "The virtue of the oppressed"
Quote:Case by case. The rule would be, if you live in a place where you wont get arrested for dissent, or the worst you have to fear is a "fuck you" or "bullshit" or "that is not true", and no one is having you arrested and you are not being chased down by mobs, then you do not get to use being offended to claim oppression.

Having your claims or beliefs insulted or criticized is not a death sentence, it merely means you got offended.

It's not really that simple as you put it - The fact you are not arrested for holding a different opinion, religion and so on is not evidence that everything's cool... There's no oppression but you can still be "oppressed" (Read - Disadvantaged) trough prejudices.

The "fuck you" and "bullshit" is an oversimplification because it depends on the contexts.

Let me give you an example as I've already done with the topic of Islamophobia - Most atheists criticize Islam and Muslims because it is a harmful religion, and that is not dependent on race - However there are a group of people, particularly conservatives and nationalists, that don't like Muslims because they look "brown" in terms of ethnicity (regardless of your opinion on race, people from the middle east don't look the same as western white Europeans, it's noticeable). This means that there will be some discrimination, and sometimes it will not be only due to Islam

Here's what happened to me that's been troubling me:
I am an avid critique of Islam, I strongly bash Muslims, Allah, the quran, Sharia..... I don't blame them if they come to hate me for it. But I do it because it is a harmful religion. What happened is that my girlfriend picked my arguments and used them to be "racist" against Muslims by switching the phrase "I don't like Muslims(Islam" by "I don't like arabs" - In fact, you've probably heard someone saying they don't like arabs.. So how do we make a distinction between what is a worthy critique and something that already makes use of a bad prejudice?
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#9
RE: The fallacy of "The virtue of the oppressed"
Why don't we start showing Christianity what oppression is truly like.
Have yard signs and other things and it reads.

Religion isn't welcome in this neighborhood.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today. 


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