Come Oh Ye Rational Thinkers...and explain race theory to me

[paulpablo]

What do you mean when you say gene lines don't track with races?

I'm just confused because I don't know what you mean by track with, and I don't know how you can find that something doesn't track with something you believe is non existent anyway.

I always thought race basically was genetic lines, different breeds of people. Obviously pretty much every different breed of human is cross bred because there's very few groups of people who are isolated totally from other groups of humans, there are no neat dividing lines but there are groups of people with different characteristics.

---

Julial wrote

I disagree with this just because it seems like an over simplified too specific to be historically accurate to say that the concept of race if leftover from one specific era by one group of people for one specific purpose.

Ancient civilizations all over the world before many of the countries you mentioned even existed had concepts of race, egyptians and greeks for example.

The genetic maps of human groupings are wildly complicated. This is the easiest one to follow I've found, based on Y-DNA. It's also grossly simplified, particularly in the Americas. When you track mitochrondrial DNA, you get something else.

I actually had a plan for fixing the system - making new terms. I barely started before I noticed the extreme similarity to NewSpeak. If I'd finished it I'd be a namerigens weseurotype englang cosmamericult. Born in North America, of the western European YDNA group, english speaking, cosmopolitan american culture. Still, that tells you something.

Every country does have a concept of race, and all of them are different. Racism in alive and well in Zimbabwe, and it's not about the Rhodesians. It's conflict between the Shona and Ndebele.

Masiye, is one example. Masiye is today in his mid-thirties. His
late father was a Moyo, but his mother is a Khumalo. According to
the principle of patrilineality, he inherited his father's isibongo. He has
married an Nguni wife, however, and both he and his mother are very
proud of his wife's aristocratic status:

"My mum is extremely excited about it. She is very hard-core Nguni, and I
am sure she might have feared that I had married one of these lesser groups.
It is actually always in her speech. What kind of person are you talkkig
about? She actually says: Wumuntumuntu? 'Is it a real person?' [literally: 'Is
it a person person?']."

These three men all first presented themselves with pride as Ndebele;
however when tracing their ancestors' first names and izibongo back
in time, they revealed that they were of Shona origin. They first
over-communicated Ndebele ethnic identity and under-communicated
Shona origin, but when it became apparent that that they could not
pass as 'pure' Ndebele any longer they started to talk about their
Shona origin.

But to Americans, that's not racism cause both groups are 'black'.

Is that definitely a concept of race or could it not just be different tribes and ancestors?

[A Theist]

But honestly as long as people of all colors treat me human, I don't care I hold no prejudices for any person of any color who is willing to treat people with respect and acceptance.

I take people as they are, no matter the race. If they like me, I like them. If they don't like me, they can kiss my ass. I reject the ridiculous notions of white privilege and white guilt. I don't have to apologize for being white.

[Mister Agenda]

'You are white' is not racist. 'You are white, therefore you have white privilege' is not racist. 'You are white, therefore you are an oppressor of minorities' IS racist.

I knew someone would bring up 'white privilege' eventually Seems to be a new buzz word. I cannot put my finger on why I find it so problematic. Perhaps because it makes it possible to attribute any personal success or failure solely to sociopolitical factors. It seems to encourage envy and downplay grit, as in "You didn't build that."

Maybe you don't like it because you're white and you don't like to admit that being white gives you any advantages in your culture.

---

:et me preface this by noting that my original post was a rant. I was pissed. I don't expect other people to work with my ideas of racism.

No worries, everyone rants sometimes and we tend to not be at our most precise when ranting.

'You are white' is not racist. 'You are white, therefore you have white privilege' is not racist. 'You are white, therefore you are an oppressor of minorities' IS racist. Essentially, racism is ascribing attributes to a person because of the race they belong to, to which their race is irrelevant. Merely acknowledging what race you (apparently) belong to is not racist. A race is a regional variation of a species. In humans, you can often determine what continent a person's ancestors were from at fifty paces. But also in humans, there is no evidence that race alone affects character.

The problem is that you are utterly wrong. You are using the vernacular of racists. This is Wikipedia, but all dictionaries concur:

Racialism is the belief that the human species is naturally divided into distinct biological categories called 'races.' According to the Oxford English Dictionary, racialism is synonymous with racism.[1]

All dictionaries concur? I am using the vernacular of racists? I call shenanigans. Literally the first definition of 'racism' to come up on Google is:

rac·ism/ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

And I never said 'racialism' is not racist. I said 'race' is a regional variation of a species. That is actually what it is. Why did you bring up 'racialism'? Just to make it sound like I'm 'utterly wrong' instead of factually correct?

And no, you can't, well, it's highly unlikely. You can't tell a Siberian from a Kwakiutl, a Khoisan from a Negrito, a Vietnamese from a Cherokee. The variations in the real world are along a spectrum with no fine lines.

If 'no you can't' was true instead of 'often determine' being true, you wouldn't have had to cherry-pick ambiguous cases. Although you must not know many Cherokees or Vietnamese if you can't tell them apart or figure out what continent their ancestors are from. The more familiar you are with the groupings involved, the more accurate you will be in such matters. For instance, I lived in Japan for 18 months and can generally distinguish them from people of other Asian ancestry by appearance, though it's not quite as easy as telling a clan Somali from an Innuit.

If you picked 100 Americans at random (I choose that country because a wide variety of people can be found there), you could break it up along the lines of African, Asian, or European ancestry with a good degree of accuracy. If I was unaware of ambiguous cases, I wouldn't have used the word 'often' as a modifier for the word 'determine'.

I want to be able to use 'human' as my definition. That's all.

That's odd. It should go without saying that you're human.

I'm the conscientious objector. The terms are not particularly useful in describing appearances.

If you leave out race as a descriptor, people can get very confused when they're trying to pick out the person you're talking about. They usually assume you're speaking of someone of the race that's most predominant in the area. If they make no assumptions about race at all, they wind up being even less likely to pick the correct person. The results of not mentioning race in someone's description leads to silliness, like lineups of people of the same rough age, height, weight, and apparant gender but of different races.

Now we need some words. I don't see white anywhere there, or black. I'd say 1-9 are Bloodless to Sallow, I've never seen anybody healthly like that. 10-18, Cream, Fawn, Beige, Almond? 19-27 Tan, Bronze, Cafe au Lait, Buff...you get the picture.

Yes. You're capable of describing a variety of shades and tones of skin, but are unwilling to admit that it's actually possible to do so.

Huh? They don't agree. I don't expect them to. That was one instance about a technical point. Well, you can demand that I refrain from insisting that Scientific Atheism is a religion and the belief in no god is still just a belief and a form of theology....just for instance.

Yes, but I can't reasonably expect you to comply without first persuading you that it is incorrect to so insist.

So when a person looks at my opinions about the Rwanda genocide, having never met or seen me, and decides I'm white?

Were they wrong?

In that context, it means supporter of the Capitalist Imperialist EuroAmerican Christian Patriarchy ™ and yeah, that's annoying.

It sounds like you're racist against white people.

I did correct him, and in fact gave him a summary ofmy people's history. It didn't fit race theory, so he ignored it.

Does your summary show you to not be of European extraction?

Race theory is a cultural convention, and I don't belong to the culture that uses it.

You keep using 'race theory' as a synonym for 'race'. It isn't, but it suits your purposes to pretend that it is, apparently.

My people have their own theory - we're the Realpeople and y'all are the ColoredPeople (because of how you describe yourselves). For most of human history, race theory amounted to "our tribe is The People, everyone else is a cannibal". Yeah, I can imagine what you think of that, but it's irrelevant. Anyway, its exactly the same way I feel about American race theory.

If it was 'American' race theory, a person from Mongolia wouldn't be able to tell you're white. And in case you were unaware of it, you're still ranting, and still using the etymological fallacy of applying obsolete meanings to modern terms.

Okay, let's have some context.

Should that not have been with what you led?

I'm writing a setting for RPG's based on Bantu Africa. I've included a few Pygmy cultures on the borders. Since the point of the setting is to see how cultures might develop in best possible setting, I gave some of the pygmies a leg up. The guy who's arguing with me insists that the geSera pygmies in Rwanda live in egalitarian harmony with their Bantu neighbors and that I'm imagining their persecution so that I can feel noble by reimagining them as not nearly extinct.

That sounds unfair.

The problem is the 1/3 of the total population of the geSera were murdered in the genocide, which this guy flatly denies happening. You can Wiki it, but all the pygmies have suffered enormous persecution. So, based on this, he decides I'm part of the White Power Structure.

That's offensive on so many levels I don't know where to start. I went with 'racist' because I swore never to use Nazi analogies in an internet debate.

Did he use those words or did he just guess that you're white? It's the conclusions he draws from you being white that would be the racist part. Even if some of his conclusions were in part true. If a black man likes watermelon, it doesn't make it less offensive or racist to correctly guess that based on racial stereotypes. And it would be racist to conclude someone is black because they like watermelon. But it's not racist to say they are black.

From what you describe, the person was being racist, but not for calling you 'white' or subscribing to 'American racial theory'. He concluded you were white based on a stereotype, THAT was the racist part.

Close. I have low latent inhibition.
and a 160 IQ. I have no filters. I can't just classify something and tune it out. For instance, if I'm in a room with books, I'll read the spine of each and every one.

At least you come by it honestly, then.

That applies to people. I can't look at a person, say 'black' and stop.

Most people don't.

I look at grooming, posture, clothing, facial expression, etc, etc. Human beings are like a fire hose of information. I don't see the world like other people.

So do most of the rest of us. In experiments, clothing counted more for how people were judged than race did.

Shorthand classifications are useless - the best I can do is try to evaluate what 'race' a person identifies with.

There is a vast gulf between 'of limited use' and 'useless'.

But of course, other people look at me and see the shorthand. I can't expect them to see like I do, and wouldn't want them to, so I just offer another shorthand - 'human'.

Most of them see the other stuff, too. You are being uncharitable when you assume they don't. And 'human' is literally a useless classification. It has no use in distinguishing you from anyone else. If we were in contact with lots of alien species, describing you as 'that human in the jeans' might be useful, or in some scenario where it's possible you could be mistaken for an animal or mannikin or something I suppose it might: 'no, not the mannikin in the gray suit, the human!'.

I was responding to a specific incident that really pissed me off. I don't normally care.

Glad to hear it. And I get it, it sounds like someone was being unfair to you on a sensitive issue, I don't blame you for being upset about it.

I was very privileged and entitled during the two years I spent in a maximum security prison. Yeah, I know LOTS about race relations. I sat down at a table with an MS13, who had '13' tattooed across his forehead in Mayan numerals and showed him my Jaguar tat. Ojale. Since I could only have religious books, I got a bilingual copy of the Koran and got the Nation of Islam guy next door to teach me. I think that gangster rap is a disease, a sick scam where 'rappers' sell the idea that violence and crime are part of artistic integrity and prison is the road to being a star. I played DnD in prison with a protoAryan and a Nuwabian and a babyraper turned hyperchristian. And all of them are people to me. I don't think I could have done those things if I stopped at race. This is not some ivory tower theory - it's life experience.

Life experience is not a good source of information about millions of people, and prison is not a mcrocosm of the real world. I'm sorry you had bad experiences, but they do not qualify you as an expert on race.

And WTF? My species is Homo sapiens. My race is human - the other options being Martian, Vulcan and Alien Transvestite Robot? Want to know how deepset this is for me? Here's a nifty little anecdote.

Yeah, that you're human is so obvious that it conveys no actual information at all and is utterly useless as a classification. And please stop peppering me with links, I don't follow them. I'm only interested in your own words.

I like rational, efficient systems. I live in the USA and use metric. The name 'USA' bugs me, but so what. I call all over the counter medicines by their chemical names. I reject Abrahamic religious concepts - I tried my damnedest (humor) to edit out of my language, but its useless. I say "the data are" when talking science and "the data is" when using computer jargon. I spent several months learning Lojban. When I was in HS I invented a script for phonetic English so I could record people's dialects accurately. Even though I grew up in the deep South with VERY southern parents, I've never had a Southern accent. I had a three way with ChiChi LaRue. I taught myself organic chemistry and set up an MDMA lab so I could give it away, fighting the War on Some Drugs. That's me. Human, Reincarnated pygmy, one of the Rainbow people.

You sound like a real pill to be around. For what were you incarcerated, if you don't mind my asking?

[tantric]

You sound like a real pill to be around. For what were you incarcerated, if you don't mind my asking?

It's personal, but I'll summarize. My mom died from cancer, the slow dehumanizing kind. I was in a bad space, and my ferret died the same way. She was really my best friend. I had to put her down, and I just had a break. I overdosed on insulin and then, so they tell me, tried to shoot myself. I failed totally, fired the rifle up in the air, then handed it to the guy who popped up from nowhere and asked him to reload it for me. Said guy was a cop, cause apparently when you OD on insulin, they come. So they charged me with assaulting a cop. The county permanently denied me bail. My choices were to sit in jail for three years to get a trial or sign a deal and get out in two. That's not justice - I was no flight risk, I had no where to go. Murderers get bail. I got bail when I was arrested for manufacturing MDMA.

Am I a pill? Well, literally, in the sense that I have a medicine cabinet with every OTC drug by active ingredient. In prison they called me 'alien' for the way I studied people, but I had fun with long running practical jokes that no one would ever suspect me of being the root of.

As I read more about low latent inhibition, the more I understand why I bother people and clash with most folks. It really is a type of autism. One issue for people like me is that we see through manipulation and lying very easily. I get so tired of people trying to con me - often it's easier just to give them what they want so they'll go away.So many people treat other humans like vending machines, just pushing buttons to get results. But there's the other side - people who don't manipulate. They could, but they don't. I love this in people, that's where the warmth comes in.

BTW, my postmodern cultural roots, the Realpeople, the Ohsaycanyousea, is the same principle as the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[A Theist]

You sound like a real pill to be around. For what were you incarcerated, if you don't mind my asking?

It's personal, but I'll summarize. My mom died from cancer, the slow dehumanizing kind. I was in a bad space, and my ferret died the same way. She was really my best friend. I had to put her down, and I just had a break. I overdosed on insulin and then, so they tell me, tried to shoot myself. I failed totally, fired the rifle up in the air, then handed it to the guy who popped up from nowhere and you asked him to reload it for me. Said guy was a cop, cause apparently when you OD on insulin, they come. So they charged me with assaulting a cop. The county permanently denied me bail. My choices were to sit in jail for three years to get a trial or sign a deal and get out in two. That's not justice - I was no flight risk, I had no where to go. Murderers get bail. I got bail when I was arrested for manufacturing MDMA.

I'm sorry to hear about your Mom and your favorite pet passing away. I can understand how you could have felt devastated by those events.....just out of curiosity though, you got a rifle and tried to shoot yourself, but failed. Not that anyone should try to shoot themselves, but how did you manage to miss the shot? ....and then you handed your rifle to a guy, who turned out to be a cop, and you asked him to reload it for you so you could try to shoot yourself again.....and after all that, totally a misunderstanding by the arresting officer, the courts charge you with assaulting a cop. You were denied bail and spent some time behind bars. All this happened to you because you tried to shoot yourself and missed? Well I hope you learned your lesson. Nothing so devastating is worth trying to shoot yourself over....otherwise you end up in the pokey over a total misunderstanding

[tantric]

Curious fact - most rifles are too long for a person to shoot themselves in the mouth - you can't reach the trigger. So i bent down and pulled it, and missed my head. I injected 30 days worth of insulin first - I was a zombie, but insulin crashes make people violent.

The charge pisses me off because it should mean anytime you fire a gun near a person without their consent, it's assault - but that only works for cops. Thanks though. My life was so bad I wanted to die, so they sent me to prison to make DAMN sure all hope for the future was gone. That shit where they denied me bail so that I'd sit in jail longer waiting for a trial that I would taking a plea is flat evil. WTF? The district attorney dictated my punishment.
in
When I got caught red-handed making MDMA, I was out on bail in a few days and got off because the messed up the date on the search warrant. Who's more of flight risk, a clandestine chemist cum domestic terrorist or a suicidally depressed guy without a pot to piss in?