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Mythology 101
#1
Mythology 101
In the first century of the common era, there appeared at the eastern and of the Mediterranean a remarkable religious leader who taught the worship of one true God and declared that religion meant not the sacrifice of beasts but the practice of charity and piety and the shunning of hatred and enmity. He was said to have worked miracles of goodness, casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead. His exemplary life led some of his followers to claim he was a son of God, though he called himself the son of a man. Accused of sedition against Rome, he was arrested. After his death, his disciples claimed he had risen from the dead, appeared to them alive, and then ascended to heaven. Who was this teacher and wonderworker? His name was Appollonius of Tyana; he died about 98 CE, and his story may be read in Flavius Philostratus’s Life of Appolonius. Comparative mythology scholar Joseph campbell wrote in his book “the hero with 1000 faces”, both Apollonius and Jesus are examples of individuals who shared similar hero stories, along with Krishna, Buddha and Romulus. The followers of Apollonius believed he was the true son of God, and that Jesus was a fraud.

Mythology has always fascinated me. When you research mythology, you find the common strains, a rhythm, a philosophical skeletal system where the “hero god” is constructed, and the same system is used time and time again. It is almost as if one borrowed from another throughout time. It is impossible to ignore the implication of systematic fabrication. The jesus story, however, was not original. The entire story seems to have been plagiarized in bits and pieces, and sometimes blatantly intact, from ancient god/man mythology passed down by Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and Persian cultures.

The list is long, from Horus in 3000 BCE Egypt all the way to jesus, but I will focus on just one…Romulus 771 BCE. In Plutarch’s biography of Romulus, the founder of Rome, we are told he was the son of god, born of a virgin; an attempt is made to kill him as a baby, and he is saved, and raised by a poor family, hailed as King, and killed by the conniving elite; that he rises from the dead, appears to a friend to tell the good news to his people, and ascends to heaven to rule from on high. Sound familiar? Just like Jesus.

Plutarch also tells us about annual public ceremonies that were still being formed, which celebrated the day Romulus ascended to heaven. The story goes as follows: at the end of his life, amid rumors he was murdered by conspiracy of the Senate, the sun went dark, and Romulus’s body vanished. The people wanted to search for him but the Senate told them not to, “for he had risen to join the gods”. Most went away happy, hoping for good things from their new god, but “some doubted”. Soon after, Proculus, a close friend of Romulus, reported that he met Romulus “on the road” between Rome and a nearby town and asked him, “why have you abandoned us?”, To which Romulus replied that he had been a God all along but had come down to earth and become incarnate to establish a great kingdom, and now had to return to his home in heaven. Then Romulus told his friend to tell the Romans that if they are virtuous they will have all worldly power (Carrier 56).

“Things being in this disorder, one, they say, of the patricians, of noble family and approved good character, and a faithful and familiar friend of Romulus himself, having come with him from Alba, Julius Proculus by name, presented himself in the forum; and, taking a most sacred oath, protested before them all, that, as he was travelling on the road, he had seen Romulus coming to meet him, looking taller and comelier than ever, dressed in shining and flaming armour; and he, being affrighted at the apparition, said, "Why, O king, or for what purpose have you abandoned us to unjust and wicked surmises, and the whole city to bereavement and endless sorrow?" and that he made answer, "It pleased the gods, O Proculus, that we, who came from them, should remain so long a time amongst men as we did; and, having built a city to be the greatest in the world for empire and glory, should again return to heaven. But farewell; and tell the Romans, that, by the exercise of temperance and fortitude, they shall attain the height of human power; we will be to you the propitious god Quirinus." This seemed credible to the Romans, upon the honesty and oath of the relater, and indeed, too, there mingled with it a certain divine passion, some preternatural influence similar to possession by a divinity; nobody contradicted it, but, laying aside all jealousies and detractions, they prayed to Quirinus and saluted him as a god”(Plutarch, 75 CE).

Folks, does any of this ring any bells for you? You do realize this story predates Jesus by 800 years right? Fabricators of religion borrow from previous religions Man/God/hero constructs and have all the way back to 3000 B.C.E.

So the fact that the jesus son of god myth story has clearly been plagiarized from older Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and Persian cultures, coupled with the fact that no one who wrote of Jesus actually knew him should make a thinking person take a pause, and reflect on the basis of their faith.
In regards to my posit; paragraph three speaks about the ceremony celebrating Romulus's ascension actually going on at the time, so he is a witness, unlike the lack of witnesses in the NT of jesus. More importantly the tale of Romulus itself though was widely attested as pre-christian: in Romulus (27-28), Plutarch, though writing c. 80-120 CE, is certainly recording a long established Roman tale and custom, and his sources are unmistakenly pre-christian: Cicero, Laws 1.3, Republic 2.10; Livy, From the founding of the city 1.16.2-8 (1.3-1.16 relating the whole story of Romulus); Ovid, Fasti 2.491-512 and Metamorphoses 14.805-51; and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities 2.63.3 (1.171-2.65 relating the whole story of Romulus); a later reference: Cassius Dio, Roman History 56.46.2. The story's antiquity was even acknowledged by christians: Tertullian, Apology 21.

So as you can see, before christianity was even beginning to be fabricated, the story of Romulus was solidly incorporated into the Roman culture. So it would be a false and disingenuous posit to suggest that the story of Romulus was fabricated after jesus, and based on jesus, when it fact it is the exact opposite. It is also false to say it was interpolations (besides the fact it is all an obvious made up fabrication) as interpolations are additions to writings to make them seem more in line with whatever view the forger wishes to support after the fact. Conjecture? No, it was actually pre-christian, and as I provided above, easy to find within respectable writers from differing times and places. If Plutarch was the only one to write of it, OR he and the other writers were all writing about some "god" named Romulus from 800 years ago, and were writing it after jesus, then you could absolutely draw a correlation to the posit that the story of Romulus was based on jesus, or that it was fabricated to throw suspicion on the jesus story, sadly the facts do not reflect that.

It intrigues me how the faithful can just wave off these obvious consecutive hero-god constructs. Not only is there no evidence of earthly jesus, but no one who ever wrote of him, knew him. Yet people claim to “know him”…..fascinating. When I was serving up the kool aid, I was very good at tap dancing too, but the more I learned during my journey of knowledge, the less I believed….how does one convince themselves this fairy tale is true? Finally I was able to discard this failed method of epistemology, and construct more logical means in which to observe and contemplate the world…

Thoughts? Support? Criticism?

References:

Carrier, Richard. On the historicity of Jesus: why we might have reason for doubt. Sheffield, England: Sheffield Phoenix press, 2014. Print.

Plutarch. Romulus, Rome. Scribe, 75 CE. Print. Retrieved from http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/romulus.html
You, not a mythical god, are the author of your book of life, make it one worth reading..and living.
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#2
RE: Mythology 101
'Twould appear that you have caught up with us. The xtians will be by soon to 'debunk' you. Have fun. Devil
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson

God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers

Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders

Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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#3
RE: Mythology 101
(February 19, 2015 at 9:39 pm)IATIA Wrote: 'Twould appear that you have caught up with us. The xtians will be by soon to 'debunk' you. Have fun. Devil

I enjoy conversating with those who believe something so strongly, yet know little of its background. I have the inside advantage, I used to sell the kool aid, and do it quite well, alas, I fell onto knowledge and moved on with my life...now I seek to counter the plethora of misinformation with facts...of course the "opposite team" will refuse to acknowledge or think about what is presented, but I don't do it for them, I do it for those who watch that are on the fence, dealing with some inner doubt, plant a few seeds of knowledge, who knows...perhaps they can free themselves of the chains of faith. Angel Cloud
You, not a mythical god, are the author of your book of life, make it one worth reading..and living.
Reply
#4
RE: Mythology 101
(February 19, 2015 at 9:30 pm)goodwithoutgod Wrote: In the first century of the common era, there appeared at the eastern and of the Mediterranean a remarkable religious leader who taught the worship of one true God and declared that religion meant not the sacrifice of beasts but the practice of charity and piety and the shunning of hatred and enmity. He was said to have worked miracles of goodness, casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead. His exemplary life led some of his followers to claim he was a son of God, though he called himself the son of a man. Accused of sedition against Rome, he was arrested. After his death, his disciples claimed he had risen from the dead, appeared to them alive, and then ascended to heaven. Who was this teacher and wonderworker? His name was Appollonius of Tyana; he died about 98 CE, and his story may be read in Flavius Philostratus’s Life of Appolonius. Comparative mythology scholar Joseph campbell wrote in his book “the hero with 1000 faces”, both Apollonius and Jesus are examples of individuals who shared similar hero stories, along with Krishna, Buddha and Romulus. The followers of Apollonius believed he was the true son of God, and that Jesus was a fraud.

Hi goodwithoutgod
Here is my symbolic interpretation of Jesus and the Bible that works even if the whole thing is borrowed or made up. This is an unconditional as I could get it:
====================================
To explain the story of humanity summarized in the Bible, it helps to distinguish the difference between the Old and New Testaments, which determines if the rest will make sense at all, or even needs to be read. Some people, after getting what Jesus means to them, do not need to use the Bible but may apply this to whatever is their path and life, and some remain nontheist in their approach. But they no longer REJECT Jesus and Christianity once they understand this is something good that helps people.

In short, the Old Testament records the tragic history of living by the "letter of the law" and retributive justice, causing death and genocidal destruction by greed, while the New Testament paints a positive future for humanity, with renewed love of life and relationships by restorative justice, living by the "spirit of the law" for lasting peace.

The key difference between these paths is divine forgiveness, which breaks the cycle of retribution inherited from previous generations. Without forgiveness, suffering repeats, projected forward. However, by receiving forgiveness and correction, where Jesus represents the spiritual process of embracing equal justice, humanity finds liberation from past strife by establishing universal truth, justice, and peace on earth. Thus, human nature is destined to reach maturity in mind, body, and spirit, collectively symbolized by the Holy Trinity.

Salvation in Jesus represents restorative justice with mercy, bringing healing grace to end conflicts. Reconciling local laws among individuals with universal laws on a global scale fulfills both in perfect harmony or marriage between people, as the bride or church, united with the authority of law or state.

The story of sacrifice and redemption represents the spiritual process each individual experiences to grow in life -- through trials, failures, and recovery -- which drives humanity to reach spiritual understanding, wholeness, and peace.

Every person goes through this spiritual process toward maturity and peace in life. And collectively, all humanity goes through it which is what the Bible represents using symbols and terms as taught in Christianity.

The common key is FORGIVENESS. And what Christ Jesus represents uniquely and universally is connection by Conscience
where ALL things are forgiven. So this is where people turn when we cannot forgive on our own. And in cases of satanic or demonic influences, the prayers in Christ Jesus are the ONLY thing that works. So this is why so much emphasis is on Jesus and Christianity as the central authority through which all humanity connects to bring lasting justice and peace.

==============

Ironically after I posted this on "that other" atheistforums site, I got haranged by an alpha atheist demanding that I cite the Bible to prove "I really know what it says and am not a nutjob."

So I tried to show I did, by summarizing "all the laws" as the Two Great Commandments plus the New Commandment, to explain the Trinity, but that wasn't good enough for THIS atheist. He wanted a literal literal summary of the Bible, when my whole point was to focus on the SPIRIT of the message which is universal and NOT depend on the literal scripture as a religious condition.

So that is where I was when I got banned -- trying to meet this atheist's need for a literal Bible, when my figurative description that works for Christians wasn't good enough for him. I finally find something that Christians will accept as consistent with Christianity, and then this guy, an atheist, demands that it isn't literal enough to the Bible!

WT? If there is a God designing this drama, this has to be a joke.
Either that, or the world is coming to an end, when Christians are liberal enough to include atheists, but the atheists insist on sticking to the Bible. What?

I am still reeling in shock. And think I was set up for that one!
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#5
RE: Mythology 101
Of course, OP. But some shitheads fight teeth and claws for the claim of their religion being something special and not derived from previous myths. And to add to your observations, lrge parts of Genesis and the great flood are almost word for word taken from the epic of Gilgamesh.
[Image: Bumper+Sticker+-+Asheville+-+Praise+Dog3.JPG]
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#6
RE: Mythology 101
All shitheads fight tooth and claw for their religion.

This is why all of they can be dismissed as crackpots.
Reply
#7
RE: Mythology 101
(February 19, 2015 at 9:53 pm)abaris Wrote: Of course, OP. But some shitheads fight teeth and claws for the claim of their religion being something special and not derived from previous myths. And to add to your observations, lrge parts of Genesis and the great flood are almost word for word taken from the epic of Gilgamesh.

Smile the global flood myth is one of my specialties, sadly few bring it up anymore ROFLOL

(February 19, 2015 at 9:48 pm)emilynghiem Wrote:
(February 19, 2015 at 9:30 pm)goodwithoutgod Wrote: In the first century of the common era, there appeared at the eastern and of the Mediterranean a remarkable religious leader who taught the worship of one true God and declared that religion meant not the sacrifice of beasts but the practice of charity and piety and the shunning of hatred and enmity. He was said to have worked miracles of goodness, casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead. His exemplary life led some of his followers to claim he was a son of God, though he called himself the son of a man. Accused of sedition against Rome, he was arrested. After his death, his disciples claimed he had risen from the dead, appeared to them alive, and then ascended to heaven. Who was this teacher and wonderworker? His name was Appollonius of Tyana; he died about 98 CE, and his story may be read in Flavius Philostratus’s Life of Appolonius. Comparative mythology scholar Joseph campbell wrote in his book “the hero with 1000 faces”, both Apollonius and Jesus are examples of individuals who shared similar hero stories, along with Krishna, Buddha and Romulus. The followers of Apollonius believed he was the true son of God, and that Jesus was a fraud.

Hi goodwithoutgod
Here is my symbolic interpretation of Jesus and the Bible that works even if the whole thing is borrowed or made up. This is an unconditional as I could get it:
====================================
To explain the story of humanity summarized in the Bible, it helps to distinguish the difference between the Old and New Testaments, which determines if the rest will make sense at all, or even needs to be read. Some people, after getting what Jesus means to them, do not need to use the Bible but may apply this to whatever is their path and life, and some remain nontheist in their approach. But they no longer REJECT Jesus and Christianity once they understand this is something good that helps people.

In short, the Old Testament records the tragic history of living by the "letter of the law" and retributive justice, causing death and genocidal destruction by greed, while the New Testament paints a positive future for humanity, with renewed love of life and relationships by restorative justice, living by the "spirit of the law" for lasting peace.

The key difference between these paths is divine forgiveness, which breaks the cycle of retribution inherited from previous generations. Without forgiveness, suffering repeats, projected forward. However, by receiving forgiveness and correction, where Jesus represents the spiritual process of embracing equal justice, humanity finds liberation from past strife by establishing universal truth, justice, and peace on earth. Thus, human nature is destined to reach maturity in mind, body, and spirit, collectively symbolized by the Holy Trinity.

Salvation in Jesus represents restorative justice with mercy, bringing healing grace to end conflicts. Reconciling local laws among individuals with universal laws on a global scale fulfills both in perfect harmony or marriage between people, as the bride or church, united with the authority of law or state.

The story of sacrifice and redemption represents the spiritual process each individual experiences to grow in life -- through trials, failures, and recovery -- which drives humanity to reach spiritual understanding, wholeness, and peace.

Every person goes through this spiritual process toward maturity and peace in life. And collectively, all humanity goes through it which is what the Bible represents using symbols and terms as taught in Christianity.

The common key is FORGIVENESS. And what Christ Jesus represents uniquely and universally is connection by Conscience
where ALL things are forgiven. So this is where people turn when we cannot forgive on our own. And in cases of satanic or demonic influences, the prayers in Christ Jesus are the ONLY thing that works. So this is why so much emphasis is on Jesus and Christianity as the central authority through which all humanity connects to bring lasting justice and peace.

==============

Ironically after I posted this on "that other" atheistforums site, I got haranged by an alpha atheist demanding that I cite the Bible to prove "I really know what it says and am not a nutjob."

So I tried to show I did, by summarizing "all the laws" as the Two Great Commandments plus the New Commandment, to explain the Trinity, but that wasn't good enough for THIS atheist. He wanted a literal literal summary of the Bible, when my whole point was to focus on the SPIRIT of the message which is universal and NOT depend on the literal scripture as a religious condition.

So that is where I was when I got banned -- trying to meet this atheist's need for a literal Bible, when my figurative description that works for Christians wasn't good enough for him. I finally find something that Christians will accept as consistent with Christianity, and then this guy, an atheist, demands that it isn't literal enough to the Bible!

WT? If there is a God designing this drama, this has to be a joke.
Either that, or the world is coming to an end, when Christians are liberal enough to include atheists, but the atheists insist on sticking to the Bible. What?

I am still reeling in shock. And think I was set up for that one!

Thanks for the reply. I am familiar with the message mentality. When I was finishing my degree in religious studies, specializing in christianity, it is a theory I heard often when I backed the professors into the corner with facts.....they would easily admit that the synoptic gospels were not written by the people whose names were attributed to them (pseudepigrapha) but would insist the message is the point, that faith...the belief in the unseen, unproven...a transcendental world gives us hope....the problem is the message can be found in the musings of spongebob, or within the scientologist's cultic writings, even within breatharianism you can find a good message, good messages can be found in many things...the bible for example as you stated is two parts. OT is a parable meant to strike fear borrowed from ancient sumerian stories, like the epic of gilgamesh etc, NT is a collection of allegorical writings from largely anonymous authors, sprinkled with a heavy does of pseudepigrapha and laced with interpolations...but yes, the fictional book of the bible does have positive messages, and negative messages. it is up to the reader to interpret what he wishes to take away.

The incarnation and atonement is one of my favorites, as well as the triune concept, I have written papers on those, posted on here I do believe at some point. I wont spam the board with them, but can if you wish to peruse. I use only christian textbooks for my papers, it hits closer to home when the authors are christian, and harder for the faithful to wave aside then say, the exact same info with the exact same source from an atheist author, and I understand that.

Also, prayer doesn't work, studies have proven that, in fact there are some really interesting long term studies that are easy to find that show those that thought they were being prayed for actually took a turn for the worse...power of the mind and all that. I can discuss this at great length if you like...chance and circumstance....the disproven "power of prayer"...

EDIT: found that rather easy, here you go..

The efficacy of prayer has been the topic of various studies since Francis Galton first addressed it in 1872. According to the Washington Post, "...prayer is the most common complement to mainstream medicine, far outpacing acupuncture, herbs, vitamins and other alternative remedies." The largest and most scientifically rigorous study of prayer's efficacy, the 2006 STEP project, found no significant difference whether subjects were prayed for or not, except some negative effects among those who knew they were receiving prayers.

Retrieved from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567
You, not a mythical god, are the author of your book of life, make it one worth reading..and living.
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#8
RE: Mythology 101
This question is bugging me, and maybe somebody here can answer: Is there any significance to the date of the crucifixion? If I was a gnostic Jew inventing a biography of Jesus, I might set the date of the crucifixion as a fulfillment to some numerical master plan. Maybe the crucifixion is a magic number of years before the destruction of the 2nd temple? Maybe something else?
Reply
#9
RE: Mythology 101
(February 19, 2015 at 10:59 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: This question is bugging me, and maybe somebody here can answer: Is there any significance to the date of the crucifixion? If I was a gnostic Jew inventing a biography of Jesus, I might set the date of the crucifixion as a fulfillment to some numerical master plan. Maybe the crucifixion is a magic number of years before the destruction of the 2nd temple? Maybe something else?

It coinsides with Passover.

Passover was is a remembers the worst of the ten plagues, in that if a house hold did not have the fresh blood of a lamb on the door post the oldest son would die.

Likewise if you do not have the blood of Christ/the lamb of God to cover you, you too shall die.
Reply
#10
RE: Mythology 101
(February 20, 2015 at 12:13 am)Drich Wrote:
(February 19, 2015 at 10:59 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: This question is bugging me, and maybe somebody here can answer: Is there any significance to the date of the crucifixion? If I was a gnostic Jew inventing a biography of Jesus, I might set the date of the crucifixion as a fulfillment to some numerical master plan. Maybe the crucifixion is a magic number of years before the destruction of the 2nd temple? Maybe something else?

It coinsides with Passover.

Passover was is a remembers the worst of the ten plagues, in that if a house hold did not have the fresh blood of a lamb on the door post the oldest son would die.

Likewise if you do not have the blood of Christ/the lamb of God to cover you, you too shall die.

We're all gonna die anyway. Even you.
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