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30/30 Rule
February 21, 2015 at 4:07 pm
I think that I can explain why there are so many "violations" of the 30/30 rule. First, I will quote it:
Quote:No Advertising
Any advertisements in posts will be removed immediately. If you want to promote a product, service, or website then please contact one of the administrators or moderators by private message first. This also applies to people conducting research, surveys or asking for members to sign petitions or join causes. Whilst most in the community would be glad to help with such projects, we still would like you to get permission from the staff before posting.
30/30
In addition to the No Advertising rule, there is also the 30 days and 30 posts requirement. New users must accrue 30 posts and be a member for 30 days before they are allowed to post external content, such as links, images or videos. This is to ensure that advertising is not your sole purpose on this forum. Any posts where the sole intention is to link to external sites/videos may also be removed at the discretion of the staff. Once you have met the 30/30 requirements however these particular rules no longer apply.
30/30 Exception
One very important exception to the the 30/30 requirement is when external links/videos/images are used within discussion or with the intention of discussion. While we would generally advise new members who haven't met the 30/30 stipulations against posting threads with the sole intention of linking to an external site (whether advertising or not) or starting your own discussions based on external content, we do of course allow you to link to external sources when it is warranted. For instance you can post external content if using it as evidence in a discussion or you can post a YouTube video if it is relevant to an ongoing discussion.
http://atheistforums.org/rules.php
I was told, when I posted a link, that I needed a moderator's prior approval to do so (and a moderator deleted the links from my post). However, if you read the exception above, there is no mention of getting a moderator's prior approval. Most of the links that people are apt to present, are to articles and such things, with no intent to get someone to buy anything.
If you don't want anyone to post any links until someone has posted for 30 days and has made 30 posts, why not state that simply, without the exception, which seems to be giving permission to post links in many instances?
Or if it is okay to insert links, but only with a moderator's prior permission, why is that not stated in the rule? Why is that omitted from the description of the exception?
When I posted links, that were deleted by a moderator, I had NO IDEA that I was violating the rules, because what I was doing seemed to me to fit perfectly with the exception that is explicitly stated in the rules. Indeed, what I did does fit with what is written there. I was not trying to sell anything, or to promote any particular web site; I was wanting to link to material that was relevant to the discussion. The exception clearly states "we do of course allow you to link to external sources when it is warranted. For instance you can post external content if using it as evidence in a discussion". If you don't want people to follow that, why do you have it in the rules?
So, if you want people to not post links in their first 30 days, I recommend that you rewrite the rule to make that more clear than it is.
As long as the rules remain as written, you will be getting a lot of new members posting links, believing that what they are doing is perfectly fine, because of the exception written into the rules that seems to be giving them permission to post links.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: 30/30 Rule
February 21, 2015 at 4:12 pm
(This post was last modified: February 21, 2015 at 4:13 pm by Nine.)
I really don't see the issue with posting links so long as they are relevant to discussion. It doesn't make any sense to just blanket ban all links until 30 days are up.
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RE: 30/30 Rule
February 21, 2015 at 4:21 pm
I always thought the rule was directed against self-promoting links...(i.e., someone's blog or youtube channel.) But 30 posts was a long time ago for me so who can remember.
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RE: 30/30 Rule
February 21, 2015 at 4:25 pm
(This post was last modified: February 21, 2015 at 4:26 pm by Nine.)
(February 21, 2015 at 4:21 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I always thought the rule was directed against self-promoting links...(i.e., someone's blog or youtube channel.) But 30 posts was a long time ago for me so who can remember.
Thats what I thought. After re-reading the rules I'm pretty sure Pyrrho is right. The No Advertising rule is meant to be for everyone the way its written now too. But I've seen people linking their stuff recently anyway.
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RE: 30/30 Rule
February 21, 2015 at 4:26 pm
(February 21, 2015 at 4:07 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: I was told, when I posted a link, that I needed a moderator's prior approval to do so (and a moderator deleted the links from my post). However, if you read the exception above, there is no mention of getting a moderator's prior approval.
I believe the moderator was mistaken to tell you that. You *can* get moderator approval before posting links within 30/30, but it is by no means a requirement.
(February 21, 2015 at 4:07 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: Most of the links that people are apt to present, are to articles and such things, with no intent to get someone to buy anything.
It's not just commercial advertising that is prohibited. "Advertising" includes links to blogs, youtube channels, and anything else that's intended to drive traffic away from AF to other sites. We are a discussion site, not a link farm, mirror site, news aggregator, or anything else of the sort.
I agree that the line as to what's acceptable is somewhat subjective, but I'll give you my perspective on it. Linking to an article without giving your own summary and argument for/against - OK. Linking to an article saying something along the lines of "Hey guys, what do you think of this?" - not OK. When the link/video is the bulk of the meaningful content, it's very clearly over the line.
I'll also note that 30/30 violations are generally not a big deal. We edit out the links, and most of the time, there isn't even so much as a verbal warning. Where people get in real trouble is when, after being made aware of the rule, they continue to violate it (often, by editing the post that was moderated and restoring the link), or attempt to skirt the rule by posting a link that is not a link (i.e. "go to myblog(dot)com").
The entire reason the rule exists as it does today is because of the enormous level of past abuse.
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RE: 30/30 Rule
February 21, 2015 at 4:34 pm
(February 21, 2015 at 4:21 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I always thought the rule was directed against self-promoting links...(i.e., someone's blog or youtube channel.) But 30 posts was a long time ago for me so who can remember.
That is the way I understood it from the exception written into the rules. But that is not the way it is enforced.
I would post a link to my edited post, but I have no wish to single out that particular moderator (in part due to otherwise liking that individual, but mainly because this is not about a specific moderator).
What prompted this thread was seeing other posts that have been moderated for violating the 30/30 rule, and although I cannot see what the links were, as they have been deleted, it seems that I am far from being the only person who bothered to read the exception written in the rules, who consequently thought that links were okay as long as they were relevant and not advertising some product or website.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: 30/30 Rule
February 21, 2015 at 4:51 pm
@ Pyrrho
I can certainly see where the letter of the rule and enforcement are out of sync. Hopefully this will generate some discussion amongst the moderators and bring the two into agreement.
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RE: 30/30 Rule
February 21, 2015 at 5:02 pm
It was me. In your case, Pyrrho, I removed the links because we don't like to encourage traffic to other sites, but then I decided it wasn't fair to you, so I reposted them in my own post. I didn't think that would be a big deal because they were pretty much interchangeable.
The thing is: in general, I treat 30/30 pretty hard-and-fast because it shouldn't be hard to wait thirty days and contribute thirty posts before posting outside links if a member actually wants to become a part of the community. We don't ban anyone over it, except in circumstances such as the ones Cthu described. I reposted your links because they actually did contribute to the conversation.
It's not a perfect rule, but we're just people like everyone else. We enforce it the way we see fit, and rarely are there problems as a result. I'm sorry you encountered one of the problems, but I feel it was rectified fairly.
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RE: 30/30 Rule
February 21, 2015 at 5:23 pm
I often wonder why the posters dont ask someonr else to post the link for them in a different post
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RE: 30/30 Rule
February 21, 2015 at 5:25 pm
The problem when it comes to "this is okay but that isn't" when it comes to new members posting links is that it will actually lead to more work for the moderators in having to explain themselves when someone's links get removed and someone else's don't.
It is easier for there just to be a rule that no one posts links until 30/30. It's easier for the moderators and is an effective weeding out tool for those who generally want to ask one question and don't have plans to come back afterwards, which is a major reason why someone would want to post a link in the first place. If you don't want to introduce yourself and become a part of the community, then fuck off anyways.
Besides, there is nothing on the internet besides videos that cannot be relayed by quoting. And even a video, if you care enough to have the discussion, can be summarized or you can give the Youtube search term.
I agree that the rule should be written in such a way where the intent is a little more clear, though.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
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