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RE: My View on Belief vs. Knowledge
February 28, 2015 at 10:17 am
Of course, yeah. God can mean anything.
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RE: My View on Belief vs. Knowledge
February 28, 2015 at 10:49 am
(February 28, 2015 at 8:56 am)Irrational Wrote: How I see it is there is a difference in meaning between "believing" and "knowing".
To know that something is true is to side with the view that this something is true because it has been substantially established in your mind that it is true, whether by personal experience ("I know I am male") or by an accepted consensus within society ("I know the earth is flat") or because science says so ("I know the earth is round") or some other means ("I know Daniel was at the party last night even though I wasn't there").
In a lot of cases, to believe that something is true is to side with the view that it is even though you may not be confident enough to say you know it to be true. For example, "I believe that Jesus did exist at one point in time". You could also say you believe something if you are expressing an opinion about something. For example, "I believe abortion is wrong" or "I believe he's an ugly mofo" or "I believe you need a shower right now".
With that in mind, and relating this to atheism, I believe that gnostic atheists are those who say that they know God doesn't exist because they are sure that he doesn't. Saying that you believe God doesn't exist does not, in my view, make you a gnostic atheist. It just means you're an atheist who has no qualms saying "I believe" with regards to God's non-existence because you consider "belief" to indicate a view that you accept as true for good reasons but are not sure of completely.
If you still feel that what I'm saying does not seem right, consider the following questions:
Do you believe you'll still be alive an hour from now? How about five minutes from now?
Do you know you'll still be alive an hour from now? How about five minutes from now?
Did you have the same answers for both sets of questions above?
It seems that, according to this understanding, it is possible to "know" something which is false (e.g. The earth is flat). This seems grossly inadequate to me. Is there a better way to speak about knowledge and what, exactly, it is? I think the Greeks had several words for different "kinds" of knowledge. Perhaps something similar could help?
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RE: My View on Belief vs. Knowledge
February 28, 2015 at 10:50 am
(February 28, 2015 at 9:25 am)Irrational Wrote: (February 28, 2015 at 9:13 am)Dystopia Wrote: I believe I will be alive but I cannot know that.
I'm sure there are no gods, but I'm not 100% sure, just like I'm not 100% sure about anything.
Would you say you don't know if you exist (for example)?
I'm fairly certain I exist because I can feel it.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
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RE: My View on Belief vs. Knowledge
February 28, 2015 at 11:45 am
(February 28, 2015 at 10:49 am)Ignorant Wrote: It seems that, according to this understanding, it is possible to "know" something which is false (e.g. The earth is flat). This seems grossly inadequate to me. Is there a better way to speak about knowledge and what, exactly, it is? I think the Greeks had several words for different "kinds" of knowledge. Perhaps something similar could help?
Ok, judging from some of the posts here, it seems my OP needed to be more clear.
In my view, knowledge is more of a strong conviction that something is true because it is observed as such by the "knower" ... even if, in reality, it's actually false. Many people back in the ancient days (except for the smart Greeks, I guess) considered the earth to be flat because, in the absence of observed evidence to the contrary at the time, that's what it looked like to them. So I guess they "knew" that "the earth is flat" because that's what the earth looked like to them.
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RE: My View on Belief vs. Knowledge
February 28, 2015 at 12:00 pm
Ok. What does it mean to hold something "is true"?
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RE: My View on Belief vs. Knowledge
February 28, 2015 at 12:06 pm
(February 28, 2015 at 12:00 pm)Ignorant Wrote: Ok. What does it mean to hold something "is true"?
Hard to answer without going circular.
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RE: My View on Belief vs. Knowledge
February 28, 2015 at 12:08 pm
(This post was last modified: February 28, 2015 at 12:09 pm by Ignorant.)
It seems a pretty important question. Maybe it is worth the difficulty? Not that you have to answer it at this very moment. Just something to think about.
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RE: My View on Belief vs. Knowledge
February 28, 2015 at 12:14 pm
(February 28, 2015 at 12:08 pm)Ignorant Wrote: It seems a pretty important question. Maybe it is worth the difficulty? Not that you have to answer it at this very moment. Just something to think about.
Holding something as true = accepting it as reflective of the way the world, or some stuff in it, is or works.
This is the best I can do.
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RE: My View on Belief vs. Knowledge
February 28, 2015 at 12:18 pm
I think that is a pretty good start, actually.
Is it ever possible to hold to something that cannot NOT be true. In other words, is it possible to hold to something that cannot be false?
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RE: My View on Belief vs. Knowledge
February 28, 2015 at 12:27 pm
(February 28, 2015 at 12:18 pm)Ignorant Wrote: I think that is a pretty good start, actually.
Is it ever possible to hold to something that cannot NOT be true. In other words, is it possible to hold to something that cannot be false?
I don't see why not. The more important question is can we ever know that something cannot be false.
Ignorant, I appreciate your participation, but I would prefer if you could make a counterargument rather than just ask what seems to be leading questions. Asking a question every now and then is fine, but it gets suspicious when you do it all the time without making a concrete point. This is a forum for discussion after all, and not a classroom where you place yourself as the teacher asking questions to his students.
Sorry if I'm coming off as harsh like this, but I had to say it.
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