Nihilistic Murderer

[Faith No More]

I don't mean too much to jump into your guy's conversation, but I'm going to anyway (because ultimately it doesn't really matter, does it?) I think what you are talking about is entirely separate from being a nihilist. You are talking about having a moral code. I think it's entirely possible to have a moral code and to treat people well as a nihilist. Nihilism is just the recognition of the absurd, that it doesn't really matter in the end. So I think that ethics are a seperate issue from whether or not something really matters. Also in address to this:

Right, but that's more about the definition of nihilism. I've discovered that through observing its usage it seems to be ill-defined enough that I don't use it myself.

I think you are absolutely right. If you watch the video and when the guy talks about his own execution you can tell that he places exactly the same amount of value on his own life as he does on that of his victims. The value that we place on ourselves is arbitrary and illusionary. Some people value themselves tremendously and don't value other people at all. Some people value themselves not at all and will place extreme value on someone else. Where does this stem from? From nowhere. If the value we assign to ourselves can be so arbitrary it has to just be illusionary.

The value we place is an illusion in the sense that it isn't tangible or objective, but that doesn't mean the value we place itself is meaningless.
Sure, if someone else doesn't find that value within themselves, it will lead them down a path like this guy, but I don't see how one person not valuing our lives precludes me from placing value on our lives.

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How so? I mean just because nothing matters doesn't mean that someone is doomed to inaction. I don't see the connection that you are making.

I just meant that it's difficult to conclude that nothing matters when we're trying to determine the truth because determining the truth matters to us.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Anybody can be a killer when placed in the correct circumstances. Exian said it well. They are as human as any of us.

While anyone can kill under the right circumstances, I don't think it follows that sociopaths are "as human" as any of us, if you accept that empathy is part of humanity -- which I emphatically do.

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I'd imagine that it mattered to them.

Not anymore though. They are dead.

Hence my use of the past-tense.

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In fact I think atheists who aren't nihilists are being dishonest with themselves on some level.

So you think atheists cannot hold or make moral valuations?

[CapnAwesome]

First I need to say that it pains me to be on an opposing side of an argument with you and simultaneously be on the same side of an argument as ChadWooters. I think you are one of the people who I agree with the most on these forums and one of the more pleasant people and also I find him not all that likable (No offense Chad, you can always try to change my mind I guess.)

Right, but that's more about the definition of nihilism. I've discovered that through observing its usage it seems to be ill-defined enough that I don't use it myself.

I don't really know how Nihilism is ill-defined. It seems to have a pretty clear definition to me. I think that problem is that people often times equate Nihilism with poor morals or with depression or hopelessness or something. In reality none of that has anything to do with nihilism. Nihilism is just that things don't really matter.

The value we place is an illusion in the sense that it isn't tangible or objective, but that doesn't mean the value we place itself is meaningless.
Sure, if someone else doesn't find that value within themselves, it will lead them down a path like this guy, but I don't see how one person not valuing our lives precludes me from placing value on our lives.

I totally disagree. This is the same slur that Theists will use towards Atheists. The idea that the bible or their beliefs are what's preventing them from killing people and that if they were all Atheists they would just go out and kill people. Although I'm sure that your intent is not the same you are basically saying the same thing except about Nihilists instead of Atheists. You know why I don't go out and kill people? Because I don't want to. I don't have any desire to kill people. It sounds terrible, killing someone would undoubtedly be the worst moment in my life. I think most sane people agree. You can say 'well nothing matters, might as well go kill people.' I would counter with 'Nothing matters, so I might as well not kill anyone.' I'm a little frightened by this argument. It always sounds (and I am sure that this is not the case for you) that the person wants to go out and do something horrible, but there is some sort of thing preventing them from doing it. With theists it's God but I'm not really sure what it is for Atheists who would use this argument for not being a Nihilist. That's more frightening to me than someone who accepts that our lives lack meaning and chooses to behave well anyway.

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In fact I think atheists who aren't nihilists are being dishonest with themselves on some level.

So you think atheists cannot hold or make moral valuations?

I think this is a poor understanding of Nihilism. I have a moral code because I happen to have one, either because of my environment, choices I've made or perhaps there is a kind of natural morality that is in our DNA so to speak (and that sociopaths happen to lack.) I just accept that my moral code doesn't matter. I don't hurt people because I don't want to.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I don't really know how Nihilism is ill-defined. It seems to have a pretty clear definition to me. I think that problem is that people often times equate Nihilism with poor morals or with depression or hopelessness or something. In reality none of that has anything to do with nihilism. Nihilism is just that things don't really matter.

Here is its definition:

Definition of nihilism in English:
noun

1 The rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.

1.1 Philosophy Extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence.

1.2 historical The doctrine of an extreme Russian revolutionary party circa 1900, which found nothing to approve of in the established social order.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/def...h/nihilism

[Formatting added for clarity -- PT]

I think it's as FNM states -- that common usage, which does not comport with the static definition in most cases, makes the word inapt in many cases.

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So you think atheists cannot hold or make moral valuations?

I think this is a poor understanding of Nihilism. I have a moral code because I happen to have one, either because of my environment, choices I've made or perhaps there is a kind of natural morality that is in our DNA so to speak (and that sociopaths happen to lack.) I just accept that my moral code doesn't matter. I don't hurt people because I don't want to.

Look at the provided definition, above. This only underlines FNM's point about the word being so vague in usage as to be useless.

Most people use the word as shorthand for life is meaningless. But that appears to flow from belief in nihilism, rather than being the crux of it.

Forgive the on-the-fly edits, too, please. It's hard for me to say what I mean when discussing abstruse topics like philosophy.

[CapnAwesome]

I also think the idea that Nihilism is going to make someone behave poorly or go on killing sprees is factually false. Elsewise we would see more people like the person in the video expressing those viewpoints. In fact that's the first murderer I've seen who's ever expressed them. Most murderers seem to be both Theistic and have some sort of rationale for why they've killed someone. That's the first person I've seen who totally lacked to even attempt a rationale for his actions.

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[quote='CapnAwesome' pid='892317' dateline='1425661136']I don't really know how Nihilism is ill-defined. It seems to have a pretty clear definition to me. I think that problem is that people often times equate Nihilism with poor morals or with depression or hopelessness or something. In reality none of that has anything to do with nihilism. Nihilism is just that things don't really matter.

Here is its definition:

Definition of nihilism in English:
noun

1 The rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless........etc etc

I don't think that one line dictionary definitions are very useful in general. Let me turn this conversation around a little. I'd like to know where you think your morals principles come from and also why you don't go out and kill people? Also if you believed that individual morality didn't matter, would you go out and kill people?

Edit: Also no problem on the edits! I'm pretty guilty of that myself, especially when I'm trying to add clarity to what I'm saying. I think that life is meaningless is incomplete. Everything is meaningless is probably more accurate. So that doesn't mean that as an individual I hold no morals. Just that the morals I do hold are meaningless.

[Spooky]

Anybody can be a killer when placed in the correct circumstances. Exian said it well. They are as human as any of us.

I don't think I could be a killer. Placed in any circumstance. The closest thing I can think of is protecting my kids, but I would be doing everything in my power to stop the person without killing them. I think, I mean, I have been in similar situations and my thought wasn't to kill the guy, but I didn't really have that option. I guess I may have thought to kill him had that been something that was actually possible. I'm not sure though. I don't think I could kill someone though.

Wanting to, and having the ability to are two different things. I understand what you are saying though.

Take it from somebody who came back, when so many didn't.

[CapnAwesome]

I'm a little torn on this thread. Not only am I arguing with two of the people who I like best on the forums, but I don't want to try to convince you guys or anybody else to be a Nihilist. I'm fine and happy being one. In general I'm a pretty happy person because I've learned to accept the absurdity of an atheistic and nihilistic universe. I don't think that everybody can do that though. I think some people are depressed enough considering their eventual non-existence. If you pile on the idea that all the horrible (and good) things that have happened in history are ultimately meaningless, it can become too much for some. I think that's why so many Atheists are not Nihilists, so they can instil meaning in their life to keep themselves sane. I don't instil meaning and keep myself sane just fine because I accept the absurdity and even humor of it all.

[Nope]

I am listening to the video now.

Somewhere I read that it is a myth that most serial killers are very smart. They kill people who have no connection to them and that is why they get away with their crimes. Often their victims are on the bottom of society so sadly their deaths don't always draw the authorities attention.

This guy killed people in front of witnesses and who had families who would demand justice. As far as serial killers go, he was pretty stupid.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I don't think that one line dictionary definitions are very useful in general.

What, do you want me to scan the hard copy of the OED for you? What do you expect to find, online, but an online dictionary?

Dismissing the definition because it is "online" is silly. It's a cheap way to get around the point without answering it.

Let me turn this conversation around a little. I'd like to know where you think your morals principles come from and also why you don't go out and kill people?

My moral principles come from my own thinking and empathic sense. I don't go out and kill others because I don't think I'd care for it if someone tried to kill me. Returning the courtesy.

Also if you believed that individual morality didn't matter, would you go out and kill people?

This is a circular question: if you didn't have morals, would you act amorally? Of course. But because your hypothetical doesn't obtain, this question is irrelevant. I believe that individual morality matters, and I've got evidence of it: the social contract.

Edit: Also no problem on the edits! I'm pretty guilty of that myself, especially when I'm trying to add clarity to what I'm saying. I think that life is meaningless is incomplete. Everything is meaningless is probably more accurate. So that doesn't mean that as an individual I hold no morals. Just that the morals I do hold are meaningless.

That strikes me as a distinction without a difference. What is the difference between meaningless morals, and no morals? If your morals are meaningless, how can your behavior flow from them? They obviously have some meaning, to you at the very least. And if they keep you from killing someone, your morals have meaning to others, too.

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I'm a little torn on this thread. Not only am I arguing with two of the people who I like best on the forums, but I don't want to try to convince you guys or anybody else to be a Nihilist. I'm fine and happy being one. In general I'm a pretty happy person because I've learned to accept the absurdity of an atheistic and nihilistic universe. I don't think that everybody can do that though. I think some people are depressed enough considering their eventual non-existence. If you pile on the idea that all the horrible (and good) things that have happened in history are ultimately meaningless, it can become too much for some. I think that's why so many Atheists are not Nihilists, so they can instil meaning in their life to keep themselves sane. I don't instil meaning and keep myself sane just fine because I accept the absurdity and even humor of it all.

We're not arguing, we're discussing. Friends need not agree on everything, in my book -- indeed, such friends would be boring to me, an echo chamber.

[Faith No More]

First I need to say that it pains me to be on an opposing side of an argument with you and simultaneously be on the same side of an argument as ChadWooters. I think you are one of the people who I agree with the most on these forums and one of the more pleasant people and also I find him not all that likable (No offense Chad, you can always try to change my mind I guess.)

LOL, kudos.

I don't really know how Nihilism is ill-defined. It seems to have a pretty clear definition to me. I think that problem is that people often times equate Nihilism with poor morals or with depression or hopelessness or something. In reality none of that has anything to do with nihilism. Nihilism is just that things don't really matter.

Yeah, I didn't really mean that the word itself is ill-defined, but from what I've seen of how people use the word, there doesn't seem to be an agreed upon definition of just what a nihilist is.

I totally disagree. This is the same slur that Theists will use towards Atheists. The idea that the bible or their beliefs are what's preventing them from killing people and that if they were all Atheists they would just go out and kill people. Although I'm sure that your intent is not the same you are basically saying the same thing except about Nihilists instead of Atheists. You know why I don't go out and kill people? Because I don't want to. I don't have any desire to kill people. It sounds terrible, killing someone would undoubtedly be the worst moment in my life. I think most sane people agree. You can say 'well nothing matters, might as well go kill people.' I would counter with 'Nothing matters, so I might as well not kill anyone.' I'm a little frightened by this argument. It always sounds (and I am sure that this is not the case for you) that the person wants to go out and do something horrible, but there is some sort of thing preventing them from doing it. With theists it's God but I'm not really sure what it is for Atheists who would use this argument for not being a Nihilist. That's more frightening to me than someone who accepts that our lives lack meaning and chooses to behave well anyway.

I guess I need to know exactly how you are using the term "nihilist" to really comment further here.