Dali Lama rejects reincarnation.

[Brian37]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-10/ch...on/6296420

I really hate the bullshit claim that China is "atheist" like say I am an atheist or Dawkins is. China's population is full of Buddhists, whom, like Jews, can partake in rituals and superstitions without believing in a personal god. This isnt about atheism at all, this is about competing sects of the same religion. No different than say liberal Catholics vs the right wing Catholic league. A personal god not being the center of Buddhism does not mean it is superstition free. Reincarnation is a superstition and China's Buddhist population does not like the head of their club bucking old social norms.

But I will give him credit baring ditching his religion completely, glad he isn't clinging to that bullshit claim. China is a very superstitious country and Buddhism is part of it regardless if it's club members don't subscribe to a god belief. They still believe in spirits and the magic of numbers and reincarnation. It is still a religion and this is simply a split in the interpretation of it.

[Alex K]

Agreed, except I don't think the Dalai Lama is the leader of the Chinese buddhists?

[Anomalocaris]

Dali lama is the head of one sect of tibetian Buddhism, which when it had free reign over Tibet prior to Chinese takeover in 1959 was arguably the most brutally repressive and socially regressive menifestations of Buddhism on large scale seen anywhere in the world.

Current Dali lama is the 13th dai lama, and at the core of this conflict is the issue of who will be the 14th dali lama. Rest assured this Dali lama is not ditching his religion. Religion is the only reason why he is any body. What he is trying to do is molding his religion to suite his political needs. He is in a political fight with china over what should Tibet be after his own death, an independent theocratic state ruled outright theocrat like himself, or a secular administration imposed by china that has at various time paid lip service to religious freedom and brutally cracked down on elementary menifestations of tradition religion. Traditional tibetian Buddhism believed each Dali lama is a an reincarnation of the previous one, and has an elaborate process upon the death of the previous Dali lama to identify which boy born in the theocratic state at supposedly the same moment the old Dali lama died is the incarnation of the old Dali lama. Currently China through its political control over Tibet has successfully gained control over the much of the traditional tibetian Buddhism hierarchy, and are thus in a position to ensure when this Dali lama died, China could appoint an infant born within area Of Chinese control as the successor, control his upbringing and ensure the next leader of tibetian Buddhism is loyal to secular china. The current Dali lama had sought to set up a rival hierarchy outside China that would breed successive Dali lamas who would continue to tibetian devotion to Dali lama to stir up through for china for the purpose of detaching Tibet from Chinese control and reimposing independent theocratic control of the Dali lama line over Tibet. But it is clear the communist state has the upper hand. So he is, for political reasons tearing up the rule book. He is by no means renouncing his religion. He is simply hope to modify it in such a way as to throw out traditions which are being used to thwart his political ends.

[Brian37]

Not in an influence standpoint no. Just like the Pope is the head of the Catholic church but only has verbal influence worldwide. The Dali Lama is still the top dog of the religion like the Pope is with Catholics. You still have those below that live in different countries with competing views.

---

Oh and yea, ultimately this is a political tactic, religion is simply a comic book form of politics.

[Anomalocaris]

Not in an influence standpoint no. Just like the Pope is the head of the Catholic church but only has verbal influence worldwide. The Dali Lama is still the top dog of the religion like the Pope is with Catholics. You still have those below that live in different countries with competing views.

---

Oh and yea, ultimately this is a political tactic, religion is simply a comic book form of politics.

No they are not equivalent. You underestimate the power of the Dali lama. The Dali lama's hold over tibetians is closer to the hold of the self styled caliph al Baghdadi over ISIS than that of potent Francis over Catholicism.

From the influence stand point, the Dali lama could call the equivalent of a jihad and tens of thousand if tbetians will do something similar to what islamic extremists would do. If Dali lama tells them to commit suicide by self immolation en mass to protest Chinese occupation, tens of thousand will do so. If the Dali lama tells them to charge Chinese tanks armed with hatchet, tens of thousands will do that too. China is aware of this, which is why they are determined to control who will be the next Dali lama. The reason why Dali lama has not called a jihad is because there is not a large reservoir of jihadists from overseas that he could rally to his cause. Instead vast majority of potential jihadist live under the control of the Chinese surveillance State. China has repeatedly demonstrated that if their authority is threatened, they Will happily out escalate any terrorist in violence and brutality in order to restore their control. So if the Dali lama calls a jihad, the Chinese will see it coming, able to quickly identy a good portion of the jihadists early, and would be willing and able to institute the prompt repression and exact the price in blood needed to defeat it, and the result would be further isolation of Tibet from the Dali Lama, and further strengthening of Chinese control.

Dali lama is a would be jihadist caliph who is smart enough to know unless jihad has a world wide reservoir of jihadist with which to deploy against a single state, jihad has little chance against an efficient modern state willing to use the necessary violence and oppression to crush it. so out of necessity he has followed other more subtle courses.

[Jenny A]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-10/ch...on/6296420

I really hate the bullshit claim that China is "atheist" like say I am an atheist or Dawkins is. China's population is full of Buddhists, whom, like Jews, can partake in rituals and superstitions without believing in a personal god. This isnt about atheism at all, this is about competing sects of the same religion. No different than say liberal Catholics vs the right wing Catholic league. A personal god not being the center of Buddhism does not mean it is superstition free. Reincarnation is a superstition and China's Buddhist population does not like the head of their club bucking old social norms.

But I will give him credit baring ditching his religion completely, glad he isn't clinging to that bullshit claim. China is a very superstitious country and Buddhism is part of it regardless if it's club members don't subscribe to a god belief. They still believe in spirits and the magic of numbers and reincarnation. It is still a religion and this is simply a split in the interpretation of it.

You can take back the credit for ditching the claim that reincarnation happens. The Dalai Lama is not giving up reincarnation woo generally. He expects to be reincarnated and that you will be too. What he's denying is the idea that Tibet should have another reincarnation of himself as Dalai Lama and more importantly that China should not choose the next Dalai Lama. He has announced that he will not be reincarnated in any country that is not free including China. It's a pro democracy, anti China stance and China is reacting accordingly.

[robvalue]

I find it hard to figure out if reincarnation is more or less ridiculous than the notion of an everlasting soul that goes somewhere after death. Probably equal footing.

[Jenny A]

I find it hard to figure out if reincarnation is more or less ridiculous than the notion of an everlasting soul that goes somewhere after death. Probably equal footing.

The arguments for reincarnation do sound remarkably similar to the arguments for god and/or a soul:

There are many different logical arguments given in the words of the Buddha and subsequent commentaries to prove the existence of past and future lives. In brief, they come down to four points: the logic that things are preceded by things of a similar type, the logic that things are preceded by a substantial cause, the logic that the mind has gained familiarity with things in the past, and the logic of having gained experience of things in the past.





Ultimately all these arguments are based on the idea that the nature of the mind, its clarity and awareness, must have clarity and awareness as its substantial cause. It cannot have any other entity such as an inanimate object as its substantial cause. This is self-evident. Through logical analysis we infer that a new stream of clarity and awareness cannot come about without causes or from unrelated causes. While we observe that mind cannot be produced in a laboratory, we also infer that nothing can eliminate the continuity of subtle clarity and awareness.





As far as I know, no modern psychologist, physicist, or neuroscientist has been able to observe or predict the production of mind either from matter or without cause.





http://www.dalailama.com/biography/reincarnation

[robvalue]

Well yes, that sounds just like Kalam wrote it doesn't it :p

I guess they both appeal to some sort of external non-physical essence, just do different crap with it.

[Brian37]

Not in an influence standpoint no. Just like the Pope is the head of the Catholic church but only has verbal influence worldwide. The Dali Lama is still the top dog of the religion like the Pope is with Catholics. You still have those below that live in different countries with competing views.

---

Oh and yea, ultimately this is a political tactic, religion is simply a comic book form of politics.

No they are not equivalent. You underestimate the power of the Dali lama. The Dali lama's hold over tibetians is closer to the hold of the self styled caliph al Baghdadi over ISIS than that of potent Francis over Catholicism.

From the influence stand point, the Dali lama could call the equivalent of a jihad and tens of thousand if tbetians will do something similar to what islamic extremists would do. If Dali lama tells them to commit suicide by self immolation en mass to protest Chinese occupation, tens of thousand will do so. If the Dali lama tells them to charge Chinese tanks armed with hatchet, tens of thousands will do that too. China is aware of this, which is why they are determined to control who will be the next Dali lama. The reason why Dali lama has not called a jihad is because there is not a large reservoir of jihadists from overseas that he could rally to his cause. Instead vast majority of potential jihadist live under the control of the Chinese surveillance State. China has repeatedly demonstrated that if their authority is threatened, they Will happily out escalate any terrorist in violence and brutality in order to restore their control. So if the Dali lama calls a jihad, the Chinese will see it coming, able to quickly identy a good portion of the jihadists early, and would be willing and able to institute the prompt repression and exact the price in blood needed to defeat it, and the result would be further isolation of Tibet from the Dali Lama, and further strengthening of Chinese control.

Dali lama is a would be jihadist caliph who is smart enough to know unless jihad has a world wide reservoir of jihadist with which to deploy against a single state, jihad has little chance against an efficient modern state willing to use the necessary violence and oppression to crush it. so out of necessity he has followed other more subtle courses.

They are the same religion, thus the title "Buddhists". The details and power structures may be different but the core label is the same, the same way Catholics and Baptists are Christians.

The same way you can have one atheist who likes Ayn Rand economics and then find another atheist who supports Che economics, both are still atheists.

This is a battle in one religion between competing sects, the separate boarders doesn't change anything. The Buddhist of Tibet certainly have no shot against Chinese Buddhist in an all out war. But this bucking tradition by the Dali Lama is an attempt to put cracks in the political system of China.

I don't underestimate his power, just like I don't underestimate the power of the Pope. But the Pope also is limited to words, just like he cant dictate to our political system. He can only talk. What others outside the Vatican do is is a separate issue and not all Catholics agree with him, just like Chinese Buddhists don't agree with the Dali Lama.