Is Ethernal Just A Guise For "Ifinately Far"?

[ReptilianPeon]

Religious apologists love Kalaam. People of any religion can use it and people of all religions do. It's amazing how the same premise can have so many different conclusions depending on who you ask. Heck, I could invent a deity now and it would fit Kalaam. The very same Kalaam used by William Lane-Craig is used by his bearded alter-ego, Hamza Tzortis.

Religionists will always claim that time cannot for infinitely far into the past but then they say their favourite deity infinite, which I think is strange. Personally, I don't know about you, but I don't see the problem with an infinite regress of universes. It's not like the sniper example I've heard, whereby the sniper is never issued the command to shoot, which I think is a non-sequitur. Regardless, how did their deity get to now if it's eternal?

But, putting Kalaam to one side for the moment, many religions have a concept of heaven and hell. And I wonder, do these concepts mean that time can do infinitely far into the future? Religionists talk about 'eternal life', something which I have always found confusing. For a start, it's 'carrot and stick motivation'. But, putting that aside, for anything to happen there has to be a change in states, right? Won't entropy increase in heaven? You can't have people frolicking in heaven without time, surely, or am I misconstruing? Ah, but it's supernatural I hear you say.

I don't know. I've always struggled with the idea of eternal life. Do we arrive at the age we died in? What about aging? I mean it wouldn't be fair on the old folk. Wouldn't everyone want to have the perfect body? And then wouldn't everyone be clones of each other. If somebody was circumcised (in particular dangerous FGM) and died as a result, would they arrived circumcised or not? So many questions.

Edit: Or maybe I'm just an idiot...

[AFTT47]

The Kalaam thing is one of many attempts to apply human intuition to the universe. I can see how ancient philosophers could fall for such a thing because they didn't have much else to go on. Even going back a few hundred years though, science has shown that human intuition is a very poor tool in trying to figure out how nature works. More recently, quantum mechanics has blown human intuition completely out of the water.

Common sense is aptly named: It applies to common things. One doesn't need to calculate the force resultant from running full speed into a brick wall. You KNOW it's going to hurt so you don't do it. But what happens when two astronomical bodies collide in space? Intuition isn't so reliable now so you have to break out the calculator. Trying to apply human intuition to the origin of the universe - where your starting point is a realm outside the place where all the known laws of physics exists - is beyond ridiculous.

The Heaven and Hell thing is just another very simplistic way of trying to make sense of things. In that case, it's an idealization of how things SHOULD be - from the standpoint of someone who doesn't examine the idea too closely.

[Faith No More]

Edit: Or maybe I'm just an idiot...

No, you're not an idiot.  That's just the feeling you get when you try to wrap your head around nonsense.

People like WLC aren't really philosophers.  They're justifiers.  They just use philosophical sounding arguments to justify what they already believe by using ridiculous assumptions and having reckless disregard for logical consequences.  It's just a dog and pony show to strengthen the faith of the believers. 

[ReptilianPeon]

No, you're not an idiot.  That's just the feeling you get when you try to wrap your head around nonsense.

People like WLC aren't really philosophers.  They're justifiers.  They just use philosophical sounding arguments to justify what they already believe by using ridiculous assumptions and having reckless disregard for logical consequences.  It's just a dog and pony show to strengthen the faith of the believers. 

Well, that was meant to be kind of sarcastic quip. And, in regard to Hamza Tzortis, he has in the past claimed that he once studied philosophy at university level. I'm inclined to think he could have paid for a fake qualification(s) but he might be telling the truth. If does have a genuine qualification, then he either went to a really bad university or he is deluded (or both).

In regard to Kalaam, isn't science moving towards the universe being eternal again? That's something I heard somewhere. But I can't remember where.

[RobbyPants]

As far as the Kalaam argument goes, eternity is just something inserted in to answer a question that doesn't yet have an answer. Note that their answer is purely speculative, and they have no way to prove what they say. Also, the concept of eternal being makes no sense, either, and their answers of "well, you're just a finite being" don't help their credibility.