JW looking clarity followup

[Simon Moon]

We don't believe in hell

So, on both threads you've opened, people have responded to your assertions in detail with facts and demonstrating the flawed logic of your beliefs, and the above is your only response?

Why are you posting here if you are not willing to support what you believe? 

Aren't you ignoring 1 Peter 3:15?

[Alex K]

Well of course most religions promise an afterlife. When the real life demonstrably and unfixably sucks, that's basically the only thing left to promise... Most importantly of course, noone can check if it's true.


But I'm confused, nicanica123 - are you saying that for JWs, there is no concept of an afterlife? I thought there was an afterlife for the chosen few...

[Won2blv]

We don't believe in hell

So, on both threads you've opened, people have responded to your assertions in detail with facts and demonstrating the flawed logic of your beliefs, and the above is your only response?

Why are you posting here if you are not willing to support what you believe? 

Aren't you ignoring 1 Peter 3:15?

Yeah well that scripture does say in a mild and respectful way. I don't engage with anyone, on any topic, if its just a blowhard match. Glad that you have some respect for the scriptures though

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Well of course most religions promise an afterlife. When the real life demonstrably and unfixably sucks, that's basically  the only thing left to promise..

But I'm confused, nicanica123 - are you saying that for JWs, there is no concept of an afterlife? I thought there was an afterlife for the chosen few...

The bible says that there are 144k that will rule in heaven as "kings and priests" No witness that I have every met has been shaken by this. Even people that talk about their idea of heaven basically talk about a place where they're with their family in a peaceful surrounding

[Alex K]

So the JWs do all hope to go to an afterlife

[Won2blv]

So the JWs do all hope to go to an afterlife

No, that is just not correct. There are 8 million active witnesses in the world and about 10k may or may not be part of the 144k. Witnesses believe in a resurrection. That is a form of afterlife I know, but for 99% of us we believe that we cease to exist after we die

[Cyberman]

I haven't read through this thread so apologies if I'm reiterating things that have already come up.

1. Why would this almighty god be subjected to what a human demands as proof?

It's not the god itself that I, for one, am asking to prove itself. Rather, it's whatever the believer's claiming about that god for which I'd like evidence. Expecting proof from a god we haven't even established yet is putting the cart before the horse - we haven't even agreed there is a cart.

2. Does gods creation not make him apparent?

No more than it does Allah, or Huracán, or Ceiling Cat. Again, you are presupposing the 'creation' as something attributed to the god you already believe exists, before you have even attempted to establish that god as a fact. It's palming the god card and easily spotted.

3. If god popped up one day to make himself readily known as existing, would all people serve him any way?

Well, that would go a long way to showing that this god is a genuine entity, wouldn't it? As far as people serving it:

a) that would depend on them and whatever predisposition they may already have to falling on their knees to worship a celestial dictator; and

b) is servitude a prerequisite to godly manifestation?

4. If gods purpose as I have been taught, is that one day the earth will be a paradise like state with no evil. Back to its original Eden conditions. Proving that Satan, Adam, and Eve were wrong to reject gods sovereignty and humans are not capable of ruling themselves... how would it serve his purpose if people worshipped him out of fear of him killing them rather than from their hearts?

Is this any different to people worshipping out of fear of punishment for not doing it?

I know the last one will get a lot of flack

Please - unless you intend Killing Me Softly with musical references from the seventies, the word you want is "flak".  

[Simon Moon]

For starters, when I said that I'm not looking to debate, I was referring to people like Goon that doesn't even know what Jehovah's Witnesses believe. I have doubts in god and I'm putting my thoughts out there for discussion. I do find it interesting that most people here say they would not serve god of the bible even if he proved his existence. The only way that I can quickly describe why I believe god allows suffering today, is that its like if someone crappy gets voted president. Generally, you'll have to wait 4 years before anything can change. God did not create robots. He created beings with free will. They chose to not vote for him but in themselves. Satan promised Adam and Eve that they would not die. Almost every religion in the world says that you continue live even after you die. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that you are dead. Really, the bible teaches that. God consistently demanded that there be no images used in worship of him. He always forbade idols. Why wouldn't humans have an idol for their masses to worship, knowing how much easier that is as a human? Those are some thoughts that come up as to why its hard to just have a black or white feelings on this. I accept that I will never know everything. If god exists, there are always questions that I can have from just not knowing what happened thousands or millions of years ago. If god does not, then I'll never know why there is something rather than nothing among other things.
 And one last thing about JW's, I know they can be annoying but just try engaging with them once when they stop. Don't try to prove your point. Just let them express themselves and then express yourself

It is great that you are questioning your indoctrinated, faith based beliefs.

The following may help:

First you have to decide if you really care if your beliefs are true, or at least likely to be true, and to eliminate as many false beliefs as possible.

If you really care, you have to decide what it the best, most reliable method to figure this out. Is it best to base beliefs on demonstrable evidence and valid/sound logic? Or is faith the most reliable method?

It is the contention of the vast majority of atheists, that basing ones beliefs on evidence and sound/valid logic is the single most reliable path to truth. And in situations where those things may be lacking, the best answer then becomes "I don't know, lets find out", not "lets quote some ancient text, or make stuff up".

This method has lead to every single advancement in human history. 

[rexbeccarox]

 And one last thing about JW's, I know they can be annoying but just try engaging with them once when they stop. Don't try to prove your point. Just let them express themselves and then express yourself

I'm sorry; no.  I think it's utterly rude and presumptuous to go knocking on a stranger's door, and I refuse to encourage the behavior.

[abaris]

My few thoughts on this are as follows, 1. Why would this almighty god be subjected to what a human demands as proof? 2. Does gods creation not make him apparent? 3. If god popped up one day to make himself readily known as existing, would all people serve him any way? 4. If gods purpose as I have been taught, is that one day the earth will be a paradise like state with no evil. Back to its original Eden conditions. Proving that Satan, Adam, and Eve were wrong to reject gods sovereignty and humans are not capable of ruling themselves... how would it serve his purpose if people worshipped him out of fear of him killing them rather than from their hearts?

Assuming you're not opposed to science, it kind of answers itself. The universe is about 13 billion years old, if I'm not mistaken. Earth is about 4,5 billion years old. Man, or creatures similar to man, walk the earth for about 3 million years tops. The dinosaurs, who came pretty late in earth's history, populated the earth for about 100 million years before vanishing. So do the math how significant we are as a species and why god (I assume the christian one) would suddenly crop up in the desert about 3000 years ago. Never seen before, never seen again.

[Won2blv]

 And one last thing about JW's, I know they can be annoying but just try engaging with them once when they stop. Don't try to prove your point. Just let them express themselves and then express yourself

I'm sorry; no.  I think it's utterly rude and presumptuous to go knocking on a stranger's door, and I refuse to encourage the behavior.

Thats fine because you have that right. But remember that they're not stuck in internet forums, they actually go out and engage with people. Too few of humans these days allow people to have beliefs that they don't agree with. Thats why people are becoming more polarized in their beliefs. You can see the proof in demographics, red districts become redder, blue become bluer. My point is, Discussing beliefs with people in a calm respectful way is upbuilding to humanity