(May 25, 2015 at 6:58 am)Randy Carson Wrote: People are willing to die for either of those. What I reject is the idea that eleven apostles all died for something that they knew was a lie.
I've been on vacation for the last week and so have missed the last 20 pages of discussion. However, I believe I did predict that this, the die-for-a-lie argument, would be the conclusion of your long-winded and often copied and pasted "proof" of the resurrection of Jesus. I hope it will not surprise you that we've all heard this argument many times before.
I've only skimmed the last 20 pages so please pardon me if you presented anything new. Can I assume you've offered no magical artifacts for science to examine? Can I assume no angels have paid any visits to any forum members? Would it be right to say you've offered to do no faith healing under medical peer review? Have there been any booming voices from the sky that I missed? If not, I'll proceed with all the reasons why you've failed but before I do, I'll explain why you "pre-failed" even before I offer any rebuttal.
The Pre-Failure of Your Position
In all areas of life, we operate by a few simple rules. We would not be able to function otherwise.
1. Anyone claiming something exists has the burden of proof.
2. The more extraordinary the claim, the evidence to prove the claim must be proportionally extraordinary.
On point #1, the skeptic NEVER has the burden of proof because it is impossible to prove a negative. I do not have to prove to you that 9/11 was NOT an inside job, that the Loch Ness Monster DOESN'T exist or that UFO abduction stories are false. It is up to the people who believe these things to prove their case.
Neither is it the skeptics job to explain the unknown to you. I don't have to explain how it is that some people believed that they were abducted by aliens or the "strange events" that surround someone's belief that they experienced a ghost. If I am unable to fill in the blanks of our knowledge, that does not mean that the believer is entitled to fill them in with their fantasies. This is called "argument from ignorance", or "just because I can't prove something false doesn't mean it's true."
Neither is it valid reasoning to assume that because you can't imagine any other explanation, doesn't mean that it is true. This is the logical fallacy called "argument from incredulity". Just because you can't imagine how the early followers of Jesus would have come to believe something that was not true or die for that belief is not a logically valid reason to assume that it is true.
On point #2, you, like other Christians may deny it but you operate by this rule as well.
Consider the following examples:
- I had lunch with my wife yesterday.
- I had lunch with President Obama yesterday.
- I had lunch with my dead father yesterday, who's back from the dead and feeling much better now.
OK, what standard of evidence would you require to be convinced of the above claims?
The first claim is mundane. You would probably accept it with my testimony alone.
The second claim is extraordinary. You would probably need news footage from a reputable media source.
The third claim is ridiculous, and on par with the ones you make about Jesus. You would require abundant and verifiable evidence. Four eye-witnesses would not be sufficient. Even presented with news reports from dependable journalistic sources you would still be within the bounds of rational skepticism to suspect the possibility of a hoax.
Are you starting to understand why you "pre-failed"?
How even before I offer any rebuttal, you have failed to meet your burden of proof?
In fact, you've not only failed but done so spectacularly.
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Let me sum it up for you:
1. You made an extraordinary, to say the least, claim (the resurrection)
2. You offer philosophical arguments (which is not even evidence, let alone extraordinary evidence)
3. You offer some alleged eye-witness accounts (which is weak evidence at best).
Analysis:
- Claim: Extraordinary.
- Evidence Presented: Weak.
Yes, Eye-Witness Accounts is the Weakest Form of Evidence
In a court of law, eye-witness accounts is one of the weakest forms of evidence if not THE weakest.
In science, eye-witness testimony is virtually useless.
Neil DeGrasse Tyson explains why:
Even before cross-examination of your "eye-witness accounts" and pointing out the logical fallacies of your philosophical arguments, you've already failed.
Having established that, let's go on to the assumption underlying the crux of your argument: They claimed it, they died for it, so it must be true.
Yes, People Die For Lies
It makes no sense, I agree.
If you scratch your head with incredulity, join the club.
But it happens all the time.
David Koresh made claims that would make you laugh out loud. By rights, he should have been locked up in a mental institution. He was either crazy or a bad liar. And yet, he led many to follow him, who all died tragically for his claims. He died for his own lies as well.
The followers of the Heaven's Gate cult, the Hale-Bopp comet cult, died for the silliest belief imaginable. The leader of the cult died for what he should have known was false. All his followers died with him.
Jim Jones tragically led many of his followers to suicide. He died for those beliefs as did many of those who also partook of the Kool-Aid.
Many silly belief systems rise up, even in the modern day. Many people die for them, including the very leaders who should know their beliefs aren't true. It happens again and again. Fanaticism proves nothing.
Folklore Doesn't Prove Mythology
"But this is different", objects the Christian in a fit of special pleading, "These modern cultists were crazy but Christians knew the Truth and were willing to die for it."
And we know that Paul or any of the original disciples were any more sane how? Because they attracted followers? So did these modern cults. Because they were willing to die themselves? So were the leaders of these modern cults. Because they "knew" the Truth? The leaders of these modern cults seemed pretty convinced, putting aside the problematic assumption that we can "know" what ancient people "knew", or anyone else even in the modern day for that matter. What was really going through the mind of David Koresh in his last days? Or Jim Jones?
And all of this is to accept at face value that these early Christian founders, who knew and spoke with Jesus, actually did die for their beliefs, that they were offered the chance to renounce their beliefs and chose death instead. How do we know this? The folklore says so? You use folklore to prove mythology?
It is one thing to watch movies like "The Robe" where early Christians, with their heads held high, went bravely to their deaths refusing to recant as orchestral music swelled in the background. It is another thing to assert that anything like this really happened.
What evidence do we have that the folklore of early persecution has any basis in reality, never mind specific accounts of early followers of those who knew Jesus personally going to their deaths? The closest I can find to reputable historical evidence is the story of how Nero allegedly persecuted the early Christians, blaming them for burning the capital. But even taking this story at face value, Nero was looking for a scapegoat to blame the fires of Rome upon. This is a religious pogrom, which proves Christianity like pagans persecuted under Christians a few centuries later would prove paganism.
Yet, as I've pointed out, 50 years later a well-educated governor Pliny the Younger writes to Trajan "who the heck are these Christians?" He has no idea who these people are despite the fact that they allegedly burned down the capital only a generation or so prior. And these Christians DID repent and curse Jesus. The story of early persecution is a murky one at best.
It's Never Too Soon For Urban Legends
Urban legends can spring up in no time and persist despite their outrageous claims and evidence to the contrary.
"But the early believers saw Jesus days after he died on the cross", you object.
One word: Elvis.
How soon was Elvis in the ground before there were sightings of him? And he was just a musician, who made no claims to divine power. How much did these claims persist in spite of ridicule?
Now magnify this tendency in a more superstitious time when the ancient Jews were chaffing under Roman rule, where end-times doomcriers abounded, and where the people were desperately looking for any sign that their messiah would appear to offer deliverance. Is it really so beyond credulity that fanciful notions of a condemned religious leader coming back to life would circulate in such an environment?
It is not my job as a skeptic to fill in all the gaps of our knowledge and explain how Christianity began but even if it were, is it so hard to understand a naturalistic explanation? What, aside from your need to believe your religion is true, is so hard to understand here?
That's It, Is it?
So that's your case? The Bible? The "eye-witness accounts"? The folklore of their persecution? Your incredulity that they would have died for a lie? Your assertion that Jesus sightings would have been impossible because there wasn't, you assert, enough time if the resurrection hadn't been true? I'm sure if you haven't already, you'll want to add liar, lunatic or lord, yes?
No demonstrations of the healing magic Jesus said in Mark 16 that you are supposed to possess?
No magic artifacts like Paul's handkerchief described in Acts?
No booming voice from the sky as was heard at the baptism of Jesus?
No angels have come to visit us?
No hard evidence of any kind? Just philosophical arguments and stories?
If that's all, my next post will go step-by-step to show why:
1. They weren't witnesses.
2. Their testimony wasn't reliable.
3. We do know of alterations to the Gospels.
4. They can't get their story straight.
See you next time.
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