Miracle

[Harris]

I wasn't aware of halocline until I read about it in a 1st-year science textbook. The textbook is a miracle!

I wasn't aware that that the Quran was written about 1500 years ago, until I read your last post. Your post is a miracle!

I wasn't aware that my dog threw up last night until I found it on the veranda. The veranda is a miracle!

I wasn't aware that there's a pimple on my ass until I looked in the mirror. The mirror is a miracle!

Wow, Harris. You've invented a fun new game. I wouldn't be surprised if it catches on.

This intangible squabble deprived of real-world references only presents your ineptness to counter argue.

1) In recent history people have definitely made statements about severe burns causing numbness.

We are talking about seventh century not about recent history. If you have references from seventh century or before only then you can justify your statements. Without proper references, your statements are mere speculations.

2) No one has records of everything anyone has ever said.
3) Saying that the absence of a statement proves the opposite is true is illogical. You can search through history books about someone and it might never mention that person has legs, this doesn't prove they were legless.

Burning and feeling numbness is an exceptional experience. It is not something mundane that people may pass by without noticing.

4) You're trying to prove a miracle, you're saying the quran has information that no one could have known, it doesn't work as a miracle if someone COULD have known. Just the sheer fact that all you have to do to discover that 3rd degree burns cause numbness is to talk to someone who has been a victim of 3rd degree burns is enough to cast reasonable doubt on it.

Think about if this was a court case in a court of law, you're telling the judge that the only way a book could have been written is by supernatural magic, then I offer an alternative that actually the information could have been gathered by talking to people who suffered from 3rd degree burns and it doesn't have to be the result of a magic book.

The reality is that none of the great thinkers, from the time of ancient Greece until fourteenth century, has ever documented anything about numbness. I do not think that those giants were unaware of what common people were talking around them.

That's right. And anyone with eyes and access to a cliff can see what happens when turbid fresh water enters the ocean. I think the problem is that Harris thinks everyone around the time of the Quran's creation was a fucking retard-- therefore that they could actually figure out anything must be proof of God's greatness.

Also, he picks the couple facts that seem to accord with our understanding, and ignore the Quranic statements that do not:

Let us say they were not retarded people.

1. Do you think people who lived whole of their lives in a desert far from sea and lakes in seventh century, could have the idea of halocline?

2. Do you think they also had the awareness about the precise geographic locations where salt water meets the fresh water?

Do not get blind in your envy.

Quote:"Do they not look at the birds, held poised in the midst of (the air and) the sky? Nothing holds them up but (the power of) Allah. Verily in this are signs for those who believe." Quran 16:49

lol nothing holds them up but the flow of air over a curved wing surface, causing lower air pressure above the wings. Harris' special pleading that this is a metaphor and not intended as a scientific statement in 3. . . 2. . . 1. . .

First
You have quoted the wrong verse. 16:49 says:

“And to Allah doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving (living) creatures or the angels: FOR NONE ARE ARROGANT (before their Lord).”
An Nahl (16)
-Verse 49-

The actual verse is
An Nahl (16)
-Verse 79-

This is the first sign of your negligence.

Second
• Can birds fly in vacuum?

• Why other animals (including humans) do not have wings?

• Man has all the scientific knowledge about aerodynamics and mutation so why his dreams to have wings are limited only to Hollywood movies?

Third
Who has the power to create air and to give wings to the birds?

Perhaps your answer would be “nature.” If nature has created air and the wings, so who is responsible to keep the birds from falling? The answer should be “nature”.

But what is nature?

It is the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.

So who is causing and sustaining nature if not man and not God?

I'm not claiming I have records of what a man said in the 1st century about his burns, I'm just saying the information would have been easy enough to obtain.

If two people, Bob and James are in a room together and Bob walks out and tells me he knows what James is wearing, my first assumption, without proof, will be that Bob looked at James, and that's why he knows what James was wearing. I won't think, well it could be that Bob has magic powers of being able to see things without looking.

This is exactly the same case, you're telling me a miracle happened, I'm saying no, what probably happened is many thousands of people throughout ancient history suffered severe burns, and out of those people quite a few of them reported how it felt.

It's magic miracle book vs someone turning around to someone and saying "Hey this burn feels a bit numb"

Do you think Aristotle, Plato, Descartes and other giant philosophers were dolts who failed to collect information, which is easy enough to obtain? If they were not a bunch of stupid folks then what is the reason they have affiliated feeling of burn to heart, soul, and mind? Why none of them has ever written anything about numbness?

Do you think any of these ancient people knew that burning your skin hurt? Do you think they knew that if you burn nothing it doesn't hurt?

These people did not know numbness because none of them has ever talked about it. You are talking about numbness because you know about it.

So based on your answers from those two questions, do you believe that they knew if you had all your skin burned it would hurt even more if the skin was replaced and burned again?

Even if a person would get his original skin (if not better) then I think, the pain of burning in the second experience, would be horrendous because the knowhow of the first time literal burning enhances the burning effect psychologically.

The quran isn't mentioning neurons, it isn't saying that when the skin is burned it will be numb, or deadened, it is simply saying that burning skin hurts and burning more skin hurts more.

“Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, WE SHALL CHANGE THEM FOR FRESH SKINS, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 56-

There is no need for a common person to go into intricate medical details after having the principal fact that FRESH SKIN is a must condition to feel the burning sensation.

Yes they do. Just because it takes time does not mean that saltwater and freshwater do not mix. They do mix and there is no barrier, unless you think time is a barrier.

I am saying:

“YOU DID NOT KNOW ABOUT HALOCLINE UP UNTIL I HAD POINTED IT OUT TO YOU.”

Whether fresh water and salt water mix or not is not the subject here.

No no, you don't understand. It's not the FACT of the non-mixing of saltwater and freshwater that is the miracle. It's that a bunch of desert people wrote about it as a fact 1500 years ago, when people knew nothin' about nothin', that's the miracle.

If IATIA a well-educated person living in 2015 was unaware about halocline because this is not a common phenomenon then how comes those ignorant Bedouins who had never seen the ocean in their lives did know about halocline back in seventh century.

IATIA Wrote:
People with missing limbs complain of pain in those limbs.

Bennyboy wrote:
And I'll bet the muslims knew that. It's a miracle! They knew about neuroscience before scientists did!

I know such people who complain about pain in limbs, which do not exist however, that mimicking pain is not equivalent to the real physical pain.

Is there any blind person who claims to have a normal vision?

[bennyboy]

Let us say they were not retarded people.

1. Do you think people who lived whole of their lives in a desert far from sea and lakes in seventh century, could have the idea of halocline?

Yes, because people at that time had invented both language and means of travel. Some of them certainly (I'm talking 100% chance here) traveled to seas and lakes and met people who knew things about them.

2. Do you think they also had the awareness about the precise geographic locations where salt water meets the fresh water?

Since they mentioned it in the Quran, then I would say there's a 100% chance they either knew first-hand about the halocline, or from the reported experiences of others. Yes, absolutely.

First
You have quoted the wrong verse. 16:49 says:

“And to Allah doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving (living) creatures or the angels: FOR NONE ARE ARROGANT (before their Lord).”
An Nahl (16)
-Verse 49-

The actual verse is
An Nahl (16)
-Verse 79-

This is the first sign of your negligence.

And yet you do not deny that the Quran claims that the only thing holding up birds is Allah.

Second
• Can birds fly in vacuum?

No, they can't.

• Why other animals (including humans) do not have wings?

Because different animals are different.

• Man has all the scientific knowledge about aerodynamics and mutation so why his dreams to have wings are limited only to Hollywood movies?

Because man can already fly in airplanes, and doesn't have to genetically modify or evolve people with wings.

Third
Who has the power to create air and to give wings to the birds?

Stars / evolution.

Perhaps your answer would be “nature.” If nature has created air and the wings, so who is responsible to keep the birds from falling? The answer should be “nature”.

But what is nature?

It is the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.

So who is causing and sustaining nature if not man and not God?

Nobody knows why the universe exists. However, obvious fairy tales are obvious, and do not represent an answer to that question.

[robvalue]

We don't need to know the answer to identify made up answers with no evidence behind them. Some of us are comfortable with "I don't know". It's this incessant need for all the answers that has people slurping up any popular myth.

The Quran is no better evidence than Lord of the Rings about the origin of the universe or how it works.

[bennyboy]

The Quran is no better evidence than Lord of the Rings about the origin of the universe or how it works.

ROFL

[paulpablo]

You seem to be having a debate with yourself on this thread about if internal organs feel burning or not.

You say you must have skin to feel a burning sensation.

There is no need for a common person to go into intricate medical details after having the principal fact that FRESH SKIN is a must condition to feel the burning sensation.

you then say skin is not necessary as other internal organs are sensitive to heat.

Along with that I had also given you the verses showing that there are internal organs too which are sensitive to heat.

Then you go back to skin is necessary to feel burning because other internal organs won't sense fire.

Sense of burning is specific to the skin and few other organs. Other parts of the body have other kind of pain but not the sense caused by fire.

Here you're saying, wrongly, fire could not cause pain to any other part of the body except skin.
a)  Other internal organs can sense heat.
b) Fire physically destroys internal organs, a small tear burned through a stomach or bladder would cause agony.

Do you think Aristotle, Plato, Descartes and other giant philosophers were dolts who failed to collect information, which is easy enough to obtain? If they were not a bunch of stupid folks then what is the reason they have affiliated feeling of burn to heart, soul, and mind? Why none of them has ever written anything about numbness?

I honestly don't know enough about what these people knew about pain or numbness to comment.

I still think you're confused about what their theories about pain mean.

If they are saying the brain/heart/soul/mind causes pain they aren't subtracting the element of skin involved. 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c...reflex.JPG

This is shown here in this diagram of Descartes.  The skin is burned causing sensations from fibres in the body to go from the skin up to the brain.

[Harris]

Yes, because people at that time had invented both language and means of travel. Some of them certainly (I'm talking 100% chance here) traveled to seas and lakes and met people who knew things about them.

Since they mentioned it in the Quran, then I would say there's a 100% chance they either knew first-hand about the halocline, or from the reported experiences of others. Yes, absolutely.

Lack of evidence leads people to chance conspiracies to guard their ego and dignity from ignominy.

And yet you do not deny that the Quran claims that the only thing holding up birds is Allah.

Correct! I “do not deny that Quran Claims that the only thing holding up birds is Allah.”

God has created wind and wings and taught how to fly by giving birds the innate skills therefore God is holding birds in the sky. Do people not literally hold Air Drones in the sky?

Without wings, wind, or skill no bird can fly. Ostrich is a bird but cannot fly.

Because man can already fly in airplanes, and doesn't have to genetically modify or evolve people with wings.

Man is helpless to have wings like birds and fly like birds even after having all scientific knowhow. This helplessness does not mean that people have lost their desires to fly like birds. Hollywood movies reflect these desires in a compelling manner. Be sure the day man would learn how to grow wings he will grow them straightaway.

Harris Wrote:
Who has the power to create air and to give wings to the birds?

Bennyboy wrote:
Stars / evolution.

Nobody knows why the universe exists. However, obvious fairy tales are obvious, and do not represent an answer to that question.

You say Nature and everything in it (including people) happened because of stars (Supernova) consequently I say that stars have reason and purpose of their existence. Without atoms and forces stars could not have come into existence therefore, atoms and forces have reason and purpose of their existence.

In short, everything is contingent upon the distinctive circumstances of their existence. In this obvious actuality of contingencies, it is absurd to assert that universe is not a contingent being. Universe is dependent and so far, it requires a support, the exigence of necessary being is preordained. Only God is necessary existence, whose essence is identical with his existence.

“O ye men! It is ye that have need of Allah. But Allah is the One Free of all wants, worthy of all praise.”
Faathir (35)
-Verse 15-

We don't need to know the answer to identify made up answers with no evidence behind them. Some of us are comfortable with "I don't know". It's this incessant need for all the answers that has people slurping up any popular myth.

The Quran is no better evidence than Lord of the Rings about the origin of the universe or how it works.

The Heineken Uncertainty Principle says:

"You can never be sure how many beers you had last night."

robvalue Wrote:
The Quran is no better evidence than Lord of the Rings about the origin of the universe or how it works.

Bennyboy wrote:
ROFL

And you laugh at it and weep not,
An-Najm (53)
-Verse 60-

You seem to be having a debate with yourself on this thread about if internal organs feel burning or not.

You say you must have skin to feel a burning sensation.

Quote:There is no need for a common person to go into intricate medical details after having the principal fact that FRESH SKIN is a must condition to feel the burning sensation.

you then say skin is not necessary as other internal organs are sensitive to heat.

Quote:Along with that I had also given you the verses showing that there are internal organs too which are sensitive to heat.

Then you go back to skin is necessary to feel burning because other internal organs won't sense fire.

Quote:Sense of burning is specific to the skin and few other organs. Other parts of the body have other kind of pain but not the sense caused by fire.

Here you're saying, wrongly, fire could not cause pain to any other part of the body except skin.
a) Other internal organs can sense heat.
b) Fire physically destroys internal organs, a small tear burned through a stomach or bladder would cause agony.

I know exactly what I am writing nevertheless, you are striving hard to distort the meanings of the facts that I am showing to you. Truth would never change by merely saying “sun rises in the west.”

Let me recap all what I have written so far:

1. Skin is the largest organ that can sense heat and fire
2. Skin protects all internal organs including organs that can sense heat.
3. Oral intake of hot stuff may affect these heat sensitive organs.

For Skin:
“Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 56-

For internal organs:
“Is that the (Paradise) better entertainment or the Tree of Zaqqum?
For We have truly made it (as) a trial for the wrong-doers.
For it is a tree that springs out of the bottom of Hell-Fire:
The shoots of its fruit-stalks are like the heads of devils:
Truly they will eat thereof and fill their bellies therewith.
Then on top of that they will be given a mixture made of boiling water.”
Ash-Shaaffat (37)
-Verse 63 – 67-

For internal organs:
“Verily the tree of Zaqqum
Will be the food of the Sinful,-
Like molten brass; it will boil in their insides.
Like the boiling of scalding water.”
Ad Dukhaan (44)
-Verses 43 – 46

I honestly don't know enough about what these people knew about pain or numbness to comment.

Your honesty is a wise act and good for you.

I still think you're confused about what their theories about pain mean.

If they are saying the brain/heart/soul/mind causes pain they aren't subtracting the element of skin involved.

In comparison to you, I am confident in stating that up until fourteenth century no one has the knowledge about numbness.

If you are an honest person then in place of playing with words just bring one solid statement of some renowned person who lived in seventh century or prior.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c...reflex.JPG

This is shown here in this diagram of Descartes. The skin is burned causing sensations from fibres in the body to go from the skin up to the brain.

Does this give any proof that Descartes was aware of numbness?

Quran is clear and precise about numbness without articulating the word “NUMBNESS”

[IATIA]

Do people not literally hold Air Drones in the sky?

Emphatic no. I can launch my drone and then destroy the remote and walk away. The drone will remain airborne until it hits something or runs out of fuel.

[downbeatplumb]

Do people not literally hold Air Drones in the sky?

Emphatic no. I can launch my drone and then destroy the remote and walk away. The drone will remain airborne until it hits something or runs out of fuel.

If you're holding up a drone it aint flying.

[bennyboy]

Yes, because people at that time had invented both language and means of travel. Some of them certainly (I'm talking 100% chance here) traveled to seas and lakes and met people who knew things about them.

Since they mentioned it in the Quran, then I would say there's a 100% chance they either knew first-hand about the halocline, or from the reported experiences of others. Yes, absolutely.

Lack of evidence leads people to chance conspiracies to guard their ego and dignity from ignominy.

And the combination of lack of evidence, lack of clarity, and biased speculation leads people to make miracles out of molehills.

Correct! I “do not deny that Quran Claims that the only thing holding up birds is Allah.”

God has created wind and wings and taught how to fly by giving birds the innate skills therefore God is holding birds in the sky. Do people not literally hold Air Drones in the sky?

No, they do not literally hold Air Drones in the sky. The laws of physics do that.

Without wings, wind, or skill no bird can fly. Ostrich is a bird but cannot fly.

. . . so God?

Man is helpless to have wings like birds and fly like birds even after having all scientific knowhow. This helplessness does not mean that people have lost their desires to fly like birds. Hollywood movies reflect these desires in a compelling manner. Be sure the day man would learn how to grow wings he will grow them straightaway.

This is goofy talk. Here's your problem. . . you believe that God exists, and that the Quran is a miracle. You cannot demonstrate that God exists, and it is clear to any non-muslim that the Quran is not a miracle. Do you think that spouting on about man's desire to have wings changes either of these simple truths?

Harris Wrote:
Who has the power to create air and to give wings to the birds?

Bennyboy wrote:
Stars / evolution.

Nobody knows why the universe exists. However, obvious fairy tales are obvious, and do not represent an answer to that question.

You say Nature and everything in it (including people) happened because of stars (Supernova) consequently I say that stars have reason and purpose of their existence. Without atoms and forces stars could not have come into existence therefore, atoms and forces have reason and purpose of their existence.

You are confusing "things that happen" with "purpose." That's like saying the purpose of the Earth is to make me go splat! if I jump off a building.

In short, everything is contingent upon the distinctive circumstances of their existence. In this obvious actuality of contingencies, it is absurd to assert that universe is not a contingent being. Universe is dependent and so far, it requires a support, the exigence of necessary being is preordained. Only God is necessary existence, whose essence is identical with his existence.

You state as brute fact things which are not facts. You argue that the universe is supported by God. . . and yet you have no evidence either that the universe is supported or that the God of the Quran is that support. This is the problem with believing in fairy tales-- it must necessarily substitute word salad for simple observation.

[robvalue]

Here's a question for you Harris, one no apologist ever answers.

You apparently have an omnipotent God on your side of the debate. How come you can't convince us atheists of a single thing? Does that make you doubt the strength of your team?

Does he want you to fail?