Miracle

[paulpablo]

You cannot twist the reality merely by twisting your tongue. When God sends something, He sends it down by using His Angles, by using meteorites, by giving inspiration, or by any other mean He wishes to use.

Not trying to twist anything, the translations I used are availiable online just like the translations you used, I'm simply coming to the same conclusion you have already stated which is that the term "sent down" can mean various things.
in the quran "sent down" can mean giving inspiration, using angels, meteorites, or just any means. This is YOUR claim.

So the quran uses the phrase sent down to mean various things and you can't prove it does mean meteorites, and in actual fact the quran uses the phrase sent down while talking about many things and people who definitely weren't send down in meteorites.
You admit you can't prove the quran is talking about meteorites, nothing remotely resembling meteorites is used in the verse and the only thing it does say is "sent down" which as we both agree can mean multiple things.

[paulpablo]

Ok it's time to do some role play and go back into time......


Let's go back to the times of Muhammad and talk to some people about the verses in the quran.

First of all let's talk to Abdul, he has no knowledge of pain receptors or science or anything else.

me) Hey Abdul I have a verse I'm going to read to you. You tell me what you think it means and if it makes sense to you, or if it's giving you new scientific knowledge you never heard of before.

Abdul) ok

me) Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Abdul) It means that god is punishing the disbelievers by burning their skin, when skin burns through to the flesh below it disappears, gets hard black and flaky and blisters up and so on, so god is replacing the skin over and over so they will continually feel pain.  No I don't think this verse is telling me anything new, there's no words I don't understand.

me) are you not confused by the verse? Does it go against anything you already know about how pain is caused?

Abdul) Well I know burning hurts, and if you burned through my skin then replaced it then it would hurt even more.


ok now lets leave Abdul, lets visit his cousin, Ali who's a bit of a healing expert among the tribes.

Me) Hi Ali, do you know about harsh burns and what happens to the skin of people who have these burns?

Ali) Yes the skin gets charred black, and people who have suffered these burns feel no pain in that area after it has been burned.

me) ok let me show you a verse and see if you understand it or if it is giving you new information you didn't already know.

 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Ali) Well it simply means god is punishing people by burning their skin and once the skin is roasted he replaces it with more so the person can the pain of the skin being roasted again, I know the symptoms of burns and I know burning hurts so yes of course this verse makes sense to me.

me) so is it giving you new information you didn't know?

Ali) I knew burning hurts, and in my experience as a healer among the tribes I've witnessed harsh burns and I know burned areas don't feel pain so the answer is no, this verse is telling me nothing new.


Ok now I'm going to do another role play about what DEFINITELY WILL NOT HAPPEN if you have this discussion with people from the past.

me) Hey Abdul let me show you this verse
Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Abdul) WOWWWWWWWW, I used to think pain originated from other source and not the skin.  Now I know that the skin contains pain receptors and it sends signals to the brain.  This verse is a scientific miracle and has revealed to me why burning hurts!

What I'm basically trying to show is...........

YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW HOW PAIN RECEPTORS WORK TO UNDERSTAND THIS VERSE.
THIS VERSE GIVES NO INFORMATION ABOUT PAIN RECEPTORS.
THIS VERSE DOES NOT CONTRADICT ANY TEACHINGS ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF PAIN FROM AN ANCIENT UNDERSTANDING.

[paulpablo]

If in some unfortunate accident a person is caught by the fire then which part of the body you think get exposed to the fire first. SKIN. Until fire find its way to internal organs, the unfortunate person might not be living anymore.

Yes the fire will burn the skin first, but skin is very very thin, a human being suffers heat stroke and other heat related deaths just by being in a hot room sometimes, if you throw them in a fire and ONLY replace their thin layer of skin to protect them it will do nothing to stop the heat reaching the brain, the veins and so on and so on.  Another way to look at it is if you walk into an oven and you have invincible skin that heals at a supernatural rate, this doesn't mean the rest of you will be invincible, your blood will boil your brain will dehydrate you will have some sort of heat stroke.  The heat conducting through the air will be enough to kill you.
It just simply won't work.
If you're abiding by the rules of biology and want to keep someone alive and in pain, throwing them in a fire and only replacing their skins won't work. Their brain will shut down from death and the pain receptors will be sending messages to non functional brain.

[paulpablo]

In Quran, wherever there is a phrase “Allah misguides people” or something similar to it that is obviously for people who are transgressors and intentionally go against the laws of God in their arrogance. I had made this point clear in my example of wise King and his peaceful nation.

For example, same sex marriage is against the human nature. A person should be rebellious to divine laws in order to cross the limits for engaging himself/herself in homosexual activities. I do not know any scripture that has not condemned this act.

I asked you do you believe Allah misguides people, that was the question, yes or no?

[paulpablo]

Do you know Arabic or fabricating your guestimates based on different translations only? If your first language is Arabic than whole of your argument is no more than a gibberish. If you do not know Arabic then you should consult with your Arabic Professor first before you jump over to craft your critique.

Be careful to use the correct words while accusing other people of talking gibberish.  Surely you mean if my first language ISN'T Arabic THEN THE whole of my argument is no more than a gibberish    gibberish.
It doesn't matter which translation of Arabic you use of if you yourself are a professor of Arabic, pick whatever translation you want, none of them will include anything that involves meteorites and they will all use the phrase "Sent down" which we agree can mean various things.

[Longhorn]

But wheeeeere is the germ theory? Hmmm?

[Harris]

[bennyboy]

Harris, even if early Muslim scholars invented/discovered/were aware of some science, so what? It's only a miracle if this knowledge is attained through supernatural revelation, i.e. from God rather than from observation and study.

You ramble on about passages that you say show awareness of scientific facts or principles that they could not have known. But if they wrote them down, they knew them. IF they knew these things, then the question is HOW did they know them?

If they knew science only through direct revelation from God, and not from their own observations and study, then either God was hopelessly stingy with the amount and quality of science he chose to reveal to them, or they were hopelessly retarded and uneducated in understanding, transcribing, and/or transmitting the complete body of all science, past present and future, which he must have revealed to them.

[Longhorn]

Whaat? I'm asking you to show me where I can find the germ theory in the quran. I mean, that would be pretty dang useful to the 7th century muslims. Why didn't Allah find it appropriate to tell them about it?

[paulpablo]

Why is Quran mentioning, “Roasted through?”
Why is Quran mentioning that replacement of skin is necessary for them to feel pain?

This verse says:

“as often as their SKINS are ROASTED THROUGH, We shall change them for FRESH SKINS, that they may TASTE THE PENALTY”.

It says they may taste the penalty, meaning cause them pain.

If I say I'm going to slap you across the face so you feel pain, I'm not saying that your face is needed for you to feel pain. 

Additionally if the quran is saying the skin is not necessary it's wrong because other organs will be damaged by the fire also causing them pain.  If you magically remove all of a persons skin from their body and set them on fire they will still feel pain.