What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Cyberman]

"This boson is so central to the state of physics today, so crucial to our final understanding of the structure of matter, yet so elusive, that I have given it a nickname: the God Particle. Why God Particle? Two reasons. One, the publisher wouldn't let us call it the Goddamn Particle, though that might be a more appropriate title, given its villainous nature and the expense it is causing. And two, there is a connection, of sorts, to another book, a much older one..."
   —Leon M. Lederman and Dick Teresi, The God Particle: If the Universe is the Answer, What is the Question p. 22

[pocaracas]

I find it truly amazing that after so much talk about pedophilia and the catholic church, that no one has presented Randy (Lady, please refrain your ears) with Tim Minchin's "The Pope Song" (this is what made nineteen put me on ignore, so... NSFW matterial - pertains to the popenfuhrer, not frank)

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[Nope]

Abstinence doesn't work. It's a fact.

Just to clarify, I wasn't referring to abstinence only programs, I was referring to abstinence itself. Assuming you have all the right parts intact, not having sex is the only for sure way to avoid pregnancy. You can't get pregnant if you don't have sex.

The problem is that most people won't practice abstinence because sex is such a powerful urge. Sometimes it seems that some religious people are so focused on not having sex that they actually think and talk about sex a lot more than those of us who could care less who sleeps with who.

I am about to answer in a rambling way but bear with me. There is a point, I promise.

One of my favorite books is Tom Jones: History of a Foundling. It was published in the 1700's. Anyway(I swear I am getting to the point), the story begins with a wealthy widower finding a baby on his bed. It isn't his child so his servants look for the mother. When they find the woman that they believe gave birth to Tom, the wealthy man shows mercy by not having her stripped, whipped and sent to a prison. That surprised me so I looked the prison up. Apparently, the book was correct, a woman could be sentenced to hard labor for having an illegitimate child.

Yet, there were still illegitimate births, prostitution and adultery. Even threat of harsh punishment doesn't stop people from taking a risk when it comes to sex. Many people who intend to be celibate, often fail and they are less likely to use condoms when they do have sex. Abstinence doesn't work because so few people will give up sex.

https://web.duke.edu/rpc/women_and_sexua...women.html

However, under the Commonwealth, courts were given greater power to penalize sexual offenders. After this shift, “incest and adultery were made capital offenses, fornication was punished by three months’ imprisonment and brothel-keepers faced a combination of whipping, branding on the forehead and imprisonment”

[abaris]

The problem is that most people won't practice abstinence because sex is such a powerful urge. Sometimes it seems  that some religious people are so focused on not having sex that they actually think and talk about sex a lot more than those of us who could care less who sleeps with who.

That would be because a supressed need gets only stronger and can have some pretty nasty side effects as every psychiatrist can tell you.

[Catholic_Lady]

Jesus did say a lot of really horrible shit, I agree. His fuzzy character requires selective reading.

I have a hypothesis about this in fact, I can't find the place I first heard about it. He could be an amalgamation of two characters, one peaceful and one warmongering. It makes far more sense to me.

What horrible stuff did Jesus say?

[abaris]

What horrible stuff did Jesus say?

From the top of my head without having the exact quote at my hands, the thing about coming to bring a sword would fall into that category.

[robvalue]

Here's a few to get you started:

http://www.evilbible.com/what_would_jesus_do.htm

[Alex K]

Jesus did say a lot of really horrible shit, I agree. His fuzzy character requires selective reading.

I have a hypothesis about this in fact, I can't find the place I first heard about it. He could be an amalgamation of two characters, one peaceful and one warmongering. It makes far more sense to me.

What horrible stuff did Jesus say?

I always find Matthew 10:34 very inspiring, but that is eclipsed by the utter perversity of introducing and supporting the concept of Hell and eternal torment.

[Catholic_Lady]

Just to clarify, I wasn't referring to abstinence only programs, I was referring to abstinence itself. Assuming you have all the right parts intact, not having sex is the only for sure way to avoid pregnancy. You can't get pregnant if you don't have sex.

The problem is that most people won't practice abstinence because sex is such a powerful urge. Sometimes it seems  that some religious people are so focused on not having sex that they actually think and talk about sex a lot more than those of us who could care less who sleeps with who.

I am about to answer in a rambling way but bear with me. There is a point, I promise.

One of my favorite books is Tom Jones: History of a Foundling. It was published in the 1700's. Anyway(I swear I am getting to the point), the story begins with a wealthy widower finding a baby on his bed. It isn't his child so his servants look for the mother. When they find the woman that they believe gave birth to Tom, the wealthy man shows mercy by not having her stripped, whipped and sent to a prison. That surprised me so I looked the prison up. Apparently, the book was correct, a woman could be sentenced to hard labor for having an illegitimate child.

Yet, there were still illegitimate births, prostitution and adultery. Even threat of harsh punishment doesn't stop people from taking a risk when it comes to sex. Many  people who intend to be celibate,  often fail and  they are less likely to use condoms when they do have sex. Abstinence doesn't work because so few people will give up sex.

https://web.duke.edu/rpc/women_and_sexua...women.html

However, under the Commonwealth, courts were given greater power to penalize sexual offenders. After this shift, “incest and adultery were made capital offenses, fornication was punished by three months’ imprisonment and brothel-keepers faced a combination of whipping, branding on the forehead and imprisonment”

I know what you're saying, and I agree that saving sex for marriage is very difficult (though not impossible, as I have seen it many times).
But I still object to the phrase "abstinence doesn't work", simply because it just is not true lol. Clearly, you cannot get pregnant or get an std if you don't have sex.

I will agree with you that abstinence is very difficult, but if followed through with, it absolutely will work in preventing pregnancy and stds.

With that being said, I do agree that we shouldn't go with "abstinence only programs" in public schools.

[Crossless2.0]

Then there's: "Verily I say unto you, a generation shall come who will not believe the ancient writings.  For such vipers, I send not God's love but a fivefold curse, and the unbelievers shall know my hand is upon them in wrath when they heareth for a thousand times (nay, for seven-thousand thousand times) the same bad arguments in my name. Let him who has ears know this is the truth for the curses shall be known as Drich, Godschild, Randy Carson, Snowtracks, and SteveII."

Jesus could be downright cruel at times.