What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Catholic_Lady]

I don't know why anyone would have expected something else............

I don't either.

[brewer]

Might as well just call yourself God and get it over with. It appears that  you are determining what is good and not good, moral and immoral. Your position and others may not be the same but it is clear that you believe that you are right, therefor God.

[Catholic_Lady]

Note how I said "between husband and wife" and not "married according to the state."

I believe that marriage is definitive of a woman/man relationship. A gay couple aught to have all the same rights under the law, but it is not a marriage in the Catholic definition of the word, which is what I believe in. Therefore I do not believe it is moral for 2 men or 2 women to engage in sexual activity, even if they are married under state law.

Why didn't God allow marriage between two men or two women and define it to include them?

You would have to ask Him that question.

But I think men and women have certain differences that compliment each other and set themselves up for the best scenario for having and raising a child. I think if God intended for 2 men or 2 women to bond together as a family unit, he would have made it so that they could reproduce.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Parkers Tan, I am not dodging the question. A huge part of believing in God, in the Christian sense, is believing that He does not change. A big part is also believing that morals do not change. I am not dodging your question. Merely explaining my belief system as a Catholic.

You're simply restating that you believe morality is absolute because you believe it to be so. So what? You still haven't explained why you hold that belief.

I did not convert. I was born a Catholic.

I see. And you think that your Catholicism is the result of a rigorous analysis, and not the result of your upbringing?

Forgive my skepticism.

But probably during the ages of 14 and 18 I did a lot of reexamination. And even know, I continue to grow in my faith and look for answers.

You didn't answer my question: how many religions did you examine in the same depth as you examined Catholicism? And what were the bases for you rejecting them?

My husband is an Air Force pilot and we currently live in a very small town in the Middle-of-Nowhere, Texas.

Whereabouts in Texas? I'm on vacation right now, but I live in Spicewood, about thirty minutes outside Austin.

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't know why anyone would have expected something else............

I don't either.

Similarly, I don't know what you expect to come from such blatantly disingenuous statements...either.  

So here we are, a few pages in, we see that there are many ways to determine what is good, that atheists can use any number of them, even the same as those used by theists....but you find yourself having to make statements such as these in order to justify -your- moral truths, whereas I do not.  If we're both getting the same "genocide is always wrong" effect....I can't help but stick with my process - if for no other reason than the unnecessary baggage which you've decided to put on parade in these posts.

[Catholic_Lady]

But probably during the ages of 14 and 18 I did a lot of reexamination. And even know, I continue to grow in my faith and look for answers.

You didn't answer my question: how many religions did you examine in the same depth as you examined Catholicism? And what were the bases for you rejecting them?

My husband is an Air Force pilot and we currently live in a very small town in the Middle-of-Nowhere, Texas.

Whereabouts in Texas? I'm on vacation right now, but I live in Spicewood, about thirty minutes outside Austin.

My apologies.

I did not go as far as to examine other religions, just used basic knowledge of what I already knew about them. I just examined Catholicism and decided that it made sense to me. If I had felt that it didn't, then I would start examining other beliefs, including atheism.

Del Rio. It's about 6 hours away from Austin!

---

I don't either.

Similarly, I don't know what you expect to come from such blatantly disingenuous statements...either.  

So here we are, a few pages in, we see that there are many ways to determine what is good, that atheists can use any number of them, even the same as those used by theists....but you find yourself having to make statements such as these in order to justify -your- moral truths, whereas I do not.  If we're both getting the same "genocide is always wrong" effect....I can't help but stick with my process - if for no other reason than the unnecessary baggage which you've decided to put on parade in these posts.

It is not a disingenous statement. Catholicism's teachings on sexuality are pretty basic Catholic teachings. There's no reason why anyone would think that I, as a Catholic, would not hold the Catholic position on something so fundamental to the faith. So I agreed with you.

[Longhorn]

Well, *WE* don't condemn anybody, first of all. 

I shouldn't give examples because we have no way of knowing a person's heart and so we have no way of knowing who went to Hell. But for argument's sake, let's take Hitler. I may be completely wrong, and cannot say for sure, but he was probably someone who rejected love and goodness. Look at the things he did and the way he lived his life... his actions are completely devoid of love and goodness. His actions seem to show that he rejected those ideals.  

And yes, it i chosen. By choosing to reject those things, you put yourself in the only place where those things do not exist. And like I said. It isn't any sort of physical pain and suffering. It's just a place where love/goodness is not present. That is what makes it a bad place, but if you hate love/goodness then it makes sense for you to be in a place where it is not present.

The bible describes it as a place of fire and torment, not lack of goodness

Hitler loved his dogs. And he considered what he was doing to be good.

I don't think you can show me one person on earth who doesn't want love and acts according to what is not right.....so....nobody goes to hell?

You are correct, but you have to understand that the Christian defenition of the sin of lust is not simply arousal. Arousal can be involuntary and thus cannot be immoral in and of itself. Lust is when you make the conscious decision to dehumanize someone into an object of gratification for yourself. Doing this requires some active thought and choice. 

So....it only takes redefining a few words to make it all work, huh? Again, nowhere can you find this distinction in the scripture and that is your own addition, based on what you already decided is moral

Do I believe homosexuality is immoral? No. Homosexuality is not freely chosen. People don't *choose* to be attracted to people of the same sex any more than they choose to be attracted to people of the opposite sex. And since attraction is not voluntary, it cannot be immoral in and of itself.

How refreshing!

I DO, however, believe that any sexual activity outside the context of a husband and wife is immoral. This applies to people who are attracted to the opposite sex as well as those who are attracted to the same sex.

Sigh....and you were doing so well, coming across as such an honest person. But no. Only more bigotry masquerading as open mindedness. Of course.

Being gay isn't wrong.....you just can't ever act on the impulse that is a part of who you are and your human nature! See how accepting catholics are?

I'm sorry, but there is no mild way to put it, nor should there be: that is revolting. It's the cause of sexual repression, self loathing and misery and has ruined many a sex life. It's disgusting and hiding the hatred behind statements like 'homosexuality isn't a sin' means NOTHING when you follow it with 'unless you act on it'.

You come across as a kind person. I fail to see how you can endorse this bigotry.

[Thumpalumpacus]

But he did confirm that God does not change and neither does morality... and that murder was wrong then as it is now.

He asserted it -- he did not confirm it.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I have never heard of any pastor calling for the killing of gays/transgendered folks, or for the demise of people. But that is obviously very much against everything Jesus taught.

I've already linked you to facts about that in this very thread. Are you not at least opening those links and reading the headlines?

Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It means that you haven't learned about it.

Perhaps you should do a little reading?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hell is a place where goodness and love are not present. That's why it is so bad.

I already knew Houston was hell, thanks.