What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Godscreated]

Why has everyone ignored what CL has said about school teachers, does this not bother you, for me it's horrific that our public schools are covering up such evil.

GC

[robvalue]

You're doing a great job answering all these questions! I imagine it could be quite overwhelming having all us atheists running amok

I'm quite surprised by what you say about same gender sex. You started off with the same premise as me, that morality is based around treating others how you'd want to be treated. That covers almost all of morality in a single stroke, in a very general sense at least.

So where is the harm for consensual same sex adults having sex? How can we possibly know God didn't "intend" it, and why is that a factor all of a sudden? We don't need to think that way to easily see murder is wrong. We don't consider whether he intended it or not. Clearly he didn't put anything in place to stop it happening! So why are we using this new line of reasoning? Clearly the two gays involved are happy to have sex, and aren't breaking "the golden rule". So wherein lies the problem?

The fact that he supposedly set up evolution so as to create homosexuals (in other animals as well not just humans) makes homosexuals just as much a part of our society as anyone else. If he didn't intend it, but keeps allowing homosexuals to be created, and then expects them to either suppress their urges or pretend to be hetero, that is a cruel God in my opinion. If he can't stop them being made, then he's not much of a god. He's kind of bitching about his own "faults" there, not that I consider gays to be in any way faulty.

Also, you talk about child rearing. I don't agree that same sex parents are any worse, but even if we pretend they were, what's this has to do with sexual acts? Two men or two women can have sex all their lives without producing or hurting any children. It's an entirely seperate issue as to if they do have children through a surrogate/donor or adopt. Personally I think they should have the same right as everyone else regarding this, but again even if you don't, why also deny them sexual activity? Isn't that kicking them when they are down?

I realize it's just your opinion, I'm just pointing out what seems to me to be a huge contradiction and a massive leap to get from simple morality to suppressing gay sex. Either you personally find it immoral or you don't; if you do, then your reasons don't seem to add up, in my opinion. If it "upsets God" is that really a good enough reason? Doesn't that point to an all-too-human figure rather than a hugely powerful deity? Should we really worry about his feelings to that degree? If you don't personally think it's immoral but are forced to say it is because you are Catholic, then that's a big problem too.

[Silver]

Why has everyone ignored what CL has said about school teachers, does this not bother you, for me it's horrific that our public schools are covering up such evil.

GC

Bitch, please.

[Thumpalumpacus]

The Church is made up of 1 billion people right now. To say "the Church" as a whole protected molesters is inaccurate. There were individuals within the Church who did, yes. But it was never condoned by the Pope and it was never even close to something the majority of Catholics did. The fact that human beings can make bad decisions does not, to me, dismantle an entire institution made up of billions of people.  

As a matter of policy, the Church has moved those criminals about in order to prevent their prosecution. I don't think for a moment that the majority of the laity supported that policy, but it was in place and the Catholic hierarchy bears responsibility for abetting the molestation of children. Those weren't "bad decisions". Those were immoral acts.

Rather than coming to an atheist forum to ask us how we determine moral goodness, shouldn't you be asking these questions of your leaders?

Public school teachers commit more acts of abuse than any other career field, and a lot of times the school does cover it up. More so than the Church ever has done any of this.

Source this claim, please. Very, very few cases of teachers being shuffled around through schools in order to hide their guilt, to my knowledge.

And yet it would be silly for any of us to make the blanket statement that "Public Schools" are bad, or that Public Schools support child abuse.

That's probably because public schools don't make claims of moral leadership over humans.

Look, you're sitting here telling us that morality is absolute and comes from your god, but when you're confronted with the fact that a significant number of you god's holy men have been dreadfully immoral, your answer is, essentially, "they're human". Now, if your god is the font of morality, how is it that his own holy men cannot embody it? And more pointedly, what moral authority do they have to lecture anyone about morality? They tolerate molesters in their midst.

It would also be silly to say all teachers are bad. People are people and people from all walks of life will do bad things. This is never an excuse, but it is a reason to not stereotype entire groups of people and not discount entire institutions based on the actions of the relative few.

I'm not stereotyping, young lady. Read what I'm writing, and quit laying false accusations. Abandon this straw man.

Also, I notice, you never did answer my question: do you financially support your Catholic Church?

[Longhorn]

You have not missed it.

My views are that God intended sex to be something shared between a man and a woman who commit to each other for life. Children are a natural result of sex, which to me, helps solidify the fact that sex speaks the language of permanence, of family, and of commitment. AKA, marriage.

how do you know that?

Using sex outside of this context has led to some negative things like pregnancy before the timing is right, abortion, children without fathers, sexually transmitted diseases (if multiple partners are involved), etc.

Contraception solves all of these. But the cc says it's wrong. Do you agree? Don't you think that's ironic?

Therefore, I see sex as being something we should keep sacred. To me, this means in a loving, self giving commitment between husband and wife.

So two husbands can't be in a loving, self giving commitment because.......?

I don't think you will like my answer because religion and God are deeply involved in it. But that is my answer, and I respect that you have very different opinions on it.

I don't like your answer because it's bigoted, hateful snd discriminatory.

Also, you still can't demonstrate why those relations are wrong without referring to god.

[Longhorn]

/double post

[Catholic_Lady]

There have been people in the Church who have covered it up, yes. Those people did wrong and were definitely not acting on Church teaching.

"People"?  Really?  These aren't just "people", they're the leaders.  These are the people leading your church.

A general criticism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_C..._responses

All of this couldn't continue to happen without leadership intervening:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_C...ir_effects

Do you understand that the only problem isn't the child abuse within the church (although, it's pretty awful, being that the Church claims to be the ultimate moral authority), but the cover-ups made by your church leaders, and the prevalence of that fact?  That's not just pedophiles and sex abusers doing some awful stuff to people, but the people who enabled them... and by giving to your church, you are enabling it too.  You can protest as much as you want, but I think a good look at what you're backing would benefit you in a lot of ways.

Hi Rex.

At this point I must admit I am not sure what else you folks want me to say. I feel like I keep being told the same things, and I keep responding with the same things... and it just seems to be going around in circles at this point. I can respond to this but it would be exactly the same as what I have already said about 10 times in the past 24 hours, and you will not be satisfied with my response lol.

Yes, there are and have been and always will be bad people who are Catholic, just like every other group.
Yes, some of those people have been higher up on the hierarchy.
No, the Church does not condone abuse or the cover up of abuse.
No, the Pope has not given orders for this abuse to be covered up.
No, the vast majority of Catholics do not condone abuse or cover ups.
No, the vast majority of priests do not abuse.
No, the vast majority of Catholics, including Church clergy, do not cover up abuse.

The percentage of priests who abuse are very small compared to men in other professions.
Abuse is not a "Catholic thing" (as it seems like it is being portrayed here). It is something that can and does happen amongst all groups.

Please don't stereotype and judge an entire institution and its people based on the actions of the relative few who went against this institution's teachings.

There are far more teachers and school staffers who abuse and cover up abuse. And yet... are we sitting here condemning schools in general, condemning teachers in general, and condemning people who give money donations to public school funds? No, we are not.

With that being said, I will leave you with this link in case you are interested in taking a look: http://www.themediareport.com/fast-facts/

Otherwise I think you will continue to believe an entire institution is flawed based on a minority of individuals' bad actions, and I will continue to believe that it is not. And it is perfectly ok to agree to disagree.

[robvalue]

Public schools turn offenders over to the police, whereas priests tend to receive special treatment and lesser punishment via "internal justice".

It's like when a politician got found out doing hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of fraud. Anyone else would go to jail. This guy was "forced to pay it back!"

[Cyberman]

So two husbands can't be in a loving, self giving commitment because.......?

"God" says it's icky.

[Silver]

Otherwise I think you will continue to believe an entire institution is flawed based on a minority of individuals' bad actions, and I will continue to believe that it is not. And it is perfectly ok to agree to disagree.

Schools do not make the claim of the moral high ground as does the church.